In this First episode in our series on Mission, Gregg Garner, Laurie Kagay, and Mitchell Buchanan discuss the importance of a holistic approach to discipleship, focusing on educating and integrating individuals into a community based on the teachings of Jesus. It discusses the significance of understanding the historical context and trinitarian nature of God for effective discipleship. The speakers highlight the need for sustainable Christian living through education and modeling, rather than just conversion efforts. They stress the importance of meeting physical, social, and spiritual needs in a sustainable way that aligns with the teachings of the Bible. The conversation also touches on the importance of obedience, love, and community in discipleship, encouraging listeners to stay engaged in the mission of the church and serve faithfully.
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[00:00:09.72] - Mitchell Buchanan
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the Sermon podcast for the community church for God. So awesome to be here. We are joined by Bible extraordinaire, our teacher, Greg Garner.
[00:00:22.48] - Gregg Garner
That's me. Thank you. I don't know why it's me. I often feel very small after you say that but uh
[00:00:28.53] - Mitchell Buchanan
just cause I'm loud or. Oh, extraordinaire
[00:00:32.32] - Gregg Garner
yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:00:33.39] - Mitchell Buchanan
you feel...
[00:00:37.36] - Gregg Garner
I feel very humbled.
[00:00:38.99] - Mitchell Buchanan
Nice.
[00:00:39.59] - Gregg Garner
I like, I just feel like a regular Bible guy.
[00:00:42.31] - Mitchell Buchanan
Okay. Yeah. I mean, I can rethink the intro but... And we're joined by someone who's on the institute faculty.
[00:00:50.02] - Gregg Garner
Let's do it again. I may. I made that weird. Let's do it again for the beginning
[00:00:53.13] - Mitchell Buchanan
oh, I just roll with weird
[00:00:55.00] - Gregg Garner
Hello, hello, hello, let's try again.
[00:00:56.72] - Mitchell Buchanan
Leave all of this in. Leave all. No, I'm just joking. I would, but I don't mind leaving.
[00:01:02.82] - Gregg Garner
Just leave it in. Leave it in. Who are you? Who are you? Bible professor extraordinaire.
[00:01:10.65] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah. This is on the faculty for the Institute for God. She's one of my great friends. I loved her recent sermon on grit. She is here. Her name is Lori Kage.
[00:01:19.71] - Laurie Kagay
That's me.
[00:01:20.79] - Mitchell Buchanan
And she does a fantastic job. I hope we get to hear from her more. Today we're going to chat through Greg's sermon on mission, which is a new series we started recently. It's been great. I think someone described it as just trying to obtain information from a fire hose of biblical references and stories. And Greg can definitely delve into, I think, his thoughts. We started the series with Matthew 28, with the great commission. So 20 816 through 20. You want me to read those? And then you can kind of chat through your thoughts on the sermon or backdrop, or you can go wherever you want.
[00:02:00.79] - Gregg Garner
I can tell you what my intent was. Yeah. Did you want to read them or no?
[00:02:05.15] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah, I love reading the Bible. This is Matthew 20 816. Now, the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. When they saw him, they worshiped him. But some doubted, and Jesus came and said to them, all authority in heaven on earth has been given to me. Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always to the end of the age.
[00:02:34.96] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So there were a few things that I wanted to drive home to the congregation. One was that the great commission was not an afterthought of Jesus, but this is something that goes all the way back to Abraham's commissioning and in that case, God's overarching expectation for his children of faith. And I wanted to show that. So I did spend time in the hebrew scriptures to help make sense of this. And I wanted to show that the metanarrative of scripture that has Jesus being born in a manger in Bethlehem was all intentional on our writer of history, God himself, completing his storyline to show that the trajectory of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and then entering into the land with Ephraim and everything that took place between the north and the southeast was being recapitulated and refocused, just like Hosea. Chapter three talks about under this one head, who would be their messianic cope. But the narrative takes a turn when it's coming through this guy, Jesus, who's actually from Nazareth and who's also son of Joseph, and what is it that he is going to bring before the community at large with respect to their overarching mission? And so when the text starts off that he wants to meet with them on a mountain, it's one that he's appointing them and it's in Galilee that that has some political implications specifically for the Judeans. But for any of us who heard Jesus speaking to, like the samaritan woman, being able to recognize that the true worshipers, because even though there are some who worship and some who doubted who are present, but the true worshipers are going to worship on this mountain or on that mountain, not in Jerusalem, nothing, the mount where the well is, but in spirit and in truth, like the spiritual development of people, is the key element to the kind of worship that is going to result in action that Jesus expects from the twelve. So then he lets them know that all authority being on heaven and earth belonging to him, he's still commissioning them to go and disciple nations that these, these other communities, and in my next sermon, I'll shrink the concept of nation through a word study. But effectively, these other communities could be impacted by the illuminating light of an enlightened community. Who's been taught the commands of God? Who's been taught the commands of Jesus now the commands of Jesus, according to Matthew, because we're in the same gospel, we'll go back to chapter five and he's like, hey, if you think I came to abolish these commands in this law, you're wrong. I've come to fulfill them. It's all relevant. Heaven and earth would pass away before this becomes irrelevant. So Jesus in the book of Matthew is letting them know the same word that God gave through Moses is the same word I'm giving to you, but he's now doing it from a position of authority. He's now on a mountain. He's the king, he's the Lord. And now he's letting them know this is your mission, disciple nations. And so I wanted to, I didn't spend too much time on, like, the concept of baptism, other than the word literally means to wash, which is another way of. In the book of Leviticus, where they use the term baptize with frequency, is another way of talking about educational integration into the community's identity and purpose, so that Jesus wants other nations to experience that illuminating framework that exists. When people do what it is that's in the word of God. And then when you have people who are ready to learn, you now integrate them into the mind of Christ, you integrate them into the will of God. What does God want? And I wanted to introduce to the congregation that this can't be limited to proselytization, just merely getting people to convert. But instead of, it has to do with an educational process that we're actually teaching people how to implement the justice of God. And I think if we have, like, preconceived evangelical expectations for what this all could look like, we actually rule out what it is that Jesus wanted us to do.
[00:07:06.76] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:07:07.62] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:07:08.51] - Mitchell Buchanan
Even on that line of thinking, like seeing Matthew 28, seeing our call to the nations in this greater picture of what Israel has been all along to, I think, reduce all that to proselytization or evangelism, where it's like, hey, this is a very simple process. This can like streamline you back into this, you know, this faith group. But it's like the whole process of wandering in the wilderness, God sending prophets to speak to his people, that it has been a full educational endeavor since the beginning. So then how would that be shortchanged? Like even that process of educating someone? Yeah, we shortchange it so often where I don't think the american church intends to. But I think evangelism is just such a substitute for the baptism and education that is needed that God has been wanting since the beginning.
[00:07:59.18] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, well, we know that. And I think this generation knows better than many in the past that mere conversion efforts do nothing result in sustainable christian living, that people sometimes get in the business of getting saved and backsliding and getting saved again and backsliding and getting saved again. And some people are quite comfortable with that being the victory, not recognizing that the reason why the person struggled was because there was not only no education for them to figure out how to be someone different. But there was no enlightening model for them to have a place within. When Jesus said in John 14 that even though he's going away, he's preparing a place so that they could be where he is, we took that concept of that house and we turned it into mansions and we made it an afterlife consideration rather than what it meant to be part of a community in Christ or the body of Christ. And integration into how you operate within a new community necessitates some kind of educational transference. Like you have to develop a knowledge base so that you can enlighten and model, be that city on a hill, that light of the world.
[00:09:26.87] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right
[00:09:27.42] - Gregg Garner
because we're not talking about ceasing evangelization and proselyzation. We're not saying this is wrong altogether, but I am saying that in that text, that's not the goal. The goal is discipleship, not of individuals, but of nations communities. And those communities are discipled by communities, and communities disciple other communities into this way by integrating them through education according to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That there's this, and this is a post facto use of the term, but nonetheless a trinitarian effort, meaning people need to learn the God of the Old Testament, the Father, the God of the New Testament, the Son and the God of the present, the Holy Spirit, who are all the same. And people need to figure out how that works, which means we're going to connect them to the history of God's story in the world, culminating in his revealed identity as Jesus the Christ. It includes elements of what we've been doing as christians and in the modern world for a long time, but in order to become sustainable and to be according to what Jesus says, because you can't have something sustainable unless God's the one sustaining it. And God is not obligated to sustain something that doesn't come from his word, that he did not commence with his command or initiative. So when we surrender ourselves into that, we get to experience by faith the comfort of knowing God is going to sustain this because this is what he wanted, for sure.
[00:11:06.87] - Laurie Kagay
It's just a much fuller picture of what God wanted. I think. I think a lot of people look at the text and they just miss some of those key words. Like maybe they read it, make disciples, but even the make disciples of all nations, like you are discipling a community, not individuals. And then you can't disciple a community if you don't have a community built by God's word.
[00:11:28.78] - Gregg Garner
And to think that what a community needs discipled in is like how to do baptisms, like, is it immersion or sprinkling? And then they need disciple. Then how to help people more religious type processes that typically emerge on like, Sunday is, is a little short sighted, right? Or greatly short sighted.
[00:11:56.79] - Mitchell Buchanan
You were generous.
[00:11:58.75] - Gregg Garner
What people need discipled in are the very things that the biblical text is preoccupied with. Like, how do you get water to this entire community? How do you feed this group of people that are in the wilderness? How do you get education to, to women so they don't feel that. That their sole and primary responsibility is to be in the kitchen? How do you help outsiders recognize that they can be integrated and cleansed in such a way that the stains of their former identity no longer characterize who they can be? And of course, I'm paying allusion to a bunch of bible stories, but we don't know how to read them sometimes. So we don't even know what it is that God wants to baptize us into. We look at what Jesus did and we can see exactly what God would like us to do. Because if we didn't know the will of God, the Bible teaches us, look at Jesus, the author and perfecter of what our faith can look like lived out. We just look at him. But when we look at him, we don't see conversion efforts. When Jesus is doing things, we just don't see that. We see Jesus doing the things I just talked about. Even though people will come to believe in him, they come to believe in him as a result of the benefit that he brings to their community and the vision and the leadership and the understanding that they have about how this is going to bring salvation to their people.
[00:13:26.55] - Mitchell Buchanan
And something real quick that I wanted to highlight that you, I think, sparked me on is that if this is really discipling community to community, you know, if that's how we're seeing this, like this community, disciples going to disciple other communities, that I think we can get so bifurcated in our society where it's like, hey, we're going to go to do this very particular mission where it's like, hey, we might do a building project there. Everyone feels good and it feels like that we've really satisfied that need. But if it's somewhere, it's like our church community is called. And like, we are connected with this community in Africa, you know, in Kabongay, it's like that. We know these people, we're committed to them. It's like we don't just owe them a building project, like you were saying, the scope is like, we owe them everything. You know? It's like we owe it to the Lord to be able to disciple that community in a way that has holistic changes brought to them, not just this one very concrete example of like, oh, we did our building project, now we're back.
[00:14:22.97] - Gregg Garner
And we get that. Even as political creatures, like, as Americans, if we have an american city that is hit with a disaster, as Americans, we will all come together quite righteously to assist that city, right? Churches will formulate teams, government agencies, corporations. Walmart will pack its semi trucks to go ahead and deliver relief to that community. Because we're like volunteer ems, volunteer everything, right? But it's because our name is on that community. That's an american city, that's an american state, whatever it is, right? I'm not sure we're like that when it comes to the kingdom of God. When it comes to the kingdom of God, we're like, did they get a salvation opportunity that's good. At least their soul is secure. So sad that they can't eat, don't have clothing, don't have appropriate shelter, and no future for their children. That's sad. But this, this place is going to hell in the handbasket. So Maranatha, Lord Jesus, please come, because this is all too much.
[00:15:28.32] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah, sometimes I get the opposite. Like where you're saying Americans will feel pride in helping an american city. Sometimes if I talk to people about our work, they'll be like, well, that's not one of the unreached people groups. What are you doing for them? Like, You know what I mean?
[00:15:41.72] - Gregg Garner
Because the criteria is, again, we've done it. If they've said, I believe in Jesus, we've done it.
[00:15:47.76] - Mitchell Buchanan
Is it just natural as human beings? Hey, if it's connected to our nation, our society, that the natural pride you would have, like, oh, I care about that. And then someone else. It's just, it's that subversion. The kingdom of God is where it's like, hey, it's not a national boundary. It's people.
[00:16:04.40] - Gregg Garner
Well, we've come into a new nation, right? We've been born from above. If I'm born of this earth, which I am, just like you guys are, and I have a blue passport, login, record it, I have a USA passport. I am a citizen of the United States of America, and I'm thankful to the Lord for that. But then I got born from above, born again, and now I'm a citizen of heaven. And as a citizen of heaven, I am an ambassador of the love of God, which wants to see everybody come into a knowledge of his son so that they could experience the salvation of God. I now have a responsibility to see the world as God's people, some of which just don't know who he is. And it becomes our responsibility to introduce them, but not to stop at an introduction, but to now help them understand what are the benefits of being in this family and how do we take care of one another? What does it mean to be a part of the household of faith. And I just don't think there are a lot of these conversations happening now. I'm going to tell you, I'm so thankful for people who have. They probably would call it like an evangelistic calling, and they do campaigns to get people to receive Jesus. I'm really thankful for that. I think it's a. I think it's definitely something that I, over the years, I've debated over it in my heart and mind, but I can see it has a purpose in the broader scope of things. But if. If those conversions aren't followed up with the kind of discipleship that holistically integrates a community, not a person but a community of people, into an illuminated knowledge of what the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven could look like in their society, it falls short of the glory of God. And I think for a lot of people, they'd be so confused by that statement. But you just check out the book of Romans. Like, read the book of Romans and you'll find out that by the time you get to chapter eight, it's about recognizing that the whole earth is actually in a state of labor, waiting for the children of God to step into their place to birth. This place, which is another way of talking about how there's Jesus used in John four, that the fields are ripe with harvests. We need to harvest them. And he was talking about the people that were in Samaria. So in the same way we are, we need to see that these, these communities of the world, these nations, as the biblical text often translates it, they need to be discipled and baptized into the reputation of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The name means the reputation, right? Onomata is the greek term. And the reputation of God as father, son and spirit. God whose work throughout history revealed in his son, in the more recent history they have for the Bible, and then still alive and moving by his spirit, which is holy, alive, and his children, they need to know how that works and what that looks like and how it can bring about the kind of transformation that generationally can lead into the kind of sustainable Christianity that I think we hope for. Because right now, if you look at the ex vangelical movement, the reason why people are leaving Christianity is because their concept of Christianity doesn't work. And some of them want to maintain a relationship with God, but it's no longer the God of the Bible. Even some of them still call him Jesus, but it's not the Jesus of the Bible. And so they're wanting to have what Paul would tell Timothy is a form of religion, but denying the power because they become a lover of self and somebody who's preoccupied with getting their ears scratched according to the itch that they have for what answers they need, instead of allowing the Bible to prescribe who it is that we are and what it is that we should do. But that's what communities need discipled in. They need to see this. And I don't think that this is like an imperial effort where you're like, just trying to conquer. Like, when I was a kid, our missionary, we had a board that showed, like, where our different missionaries from our denomination were. And it looked like the game of risk to me. You guys ever see those? It's like the flags and things. I was like, wow, we're gonna conquer the world. This is crazy. And while I think that there is the love of God is intended for the whole world, and we do need to overcome the world with the love of God, to think of it in, like, a political manner is far from Jesus's trajectory of thought. We have to remember our king. When asked by Pilate if he was a king, did not say he wasn't. He just said his kingdom's not from this world, which meant that he's a way different kind of king and he is not like these other kings, because then he says, if I were, then I would have a standing military ready to make things happen, which he doesn't. So when we remember that we are indeed serving the king of kings and the lord of lords, and he has a heavenly agenda that he wants manifest on earth, and that we as believers are the community to enlighten others into what that could look like, then we're talking about someone who doesn't mind the. Think about Daniel, chapter seven, right? You got the ancient of days in the throne room. You got the other beasts. Do you guys remember how they're described in the text?
[00:21:51.82] - Laurie Kagay
Kind of docile?
[00:21:52.60] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, they're like, docile. And they're just. They're managing their own peoples right. But the vision is they're still in the throne room of the ancient of days. And even the allusion to Antioch epiphanies four with the beast that has the horn that's becoming boastful is even been given a term limit in it, like days are numbered. God's not going to allow this kind of arrogance to maintain. So people's perspective of sovereignty is less biblical than it should be whenever they think that the kingdom of God, in order to effectively rule, has to have total control. When the biblical model. Because remember when Jesus referenced himself, what was his most popular term for himself?
[00:22:40.22] - Mitchell Buchanan
Son of man.
[00:22:40.97] - Gregg Garner
Son of man and son of man comes from Daniel seven. So when you see the son of man go to the right hand, of which Jesus would quote to the Sanhedrin, when you see the son of man go to the right, he's referencing Daniel seven. He's referencing that he is the right hand embodiment of the same power that was spoken of in the ancient of days to legislate the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven, despite the fact that there are these other kingdoms, these other communities, these other nations who have their own agendas and their own ways of doing things. So what happens to us when we start to think about the fact that God doesn't need to practice expansion of his kingdom the way that political states do, which typically is we conquer you. You're now subject to our way of doing things and our rules. But instead Jesus wants to win with love. That gives room for people to even have their own forms of autonomy and then to get those people to learn God's way of doing things so that within their context they can effectuate the kingdom of God. This is a challenging task, but it's a biblical task and it's the one that I want our people to be a part of. Because while there is a very especially cultural, like, great feeling, when you see 400 people raise their hand, 500 people, 5000 people raise their hand and receive Jesus, that feels really good. It feels really bad to hear the results of those stats three years later when, when you have like an incredible minority of people doing anything as a result of that. And if anything saying, yeah, I tried being a Christian, didn't work for me. And it's, it's, the thing we're talking about is more like a mustard seed starts, small, small village of people, small community of people. But then all of a sudden that community grows in capacity and it all of a sudden has the model elementary school for other government, the government to look at and say, we need a model after this has a model farm, other neighbors going, hey, we need to do that. Has a model way of doing community and helping each other out. A healthcare facility emerges, jobs emerge, and now other people are looking at it and going, what is this? Which is why I did deuteronomy four, five through eight the next week. But these are some of my major objectives.
[00:25:07.91] - Mitchell Buchanan
that's an intro. I don't know, take it or leave it.
[00:25:13.71] - Laurie Kagay
I think a really good point you made was helping people understand this nations in the text. Because I think, again, that word people kind of go to the risk map or to political thinking and drawing more attention to a synonymous term is likely communities.
[00:25:28.26] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:25:28.60] - Laurie Kagay
Like, I think it does a few things. One, I think it may calm people down from the, you know, maybe expansionism tendencies, but also help them to also, like, walk, calm down from that. Also be fueled in, oh, my gosh, we are doing this. Like, if we're talking about communities, that means that, oh, this community is looking at us. This, you know, like, because I have seen all of those things to be true. And I think that it's. It's just a necessary teaching. I mean, that is the word in the text. So people will get hung up.
[00:26:01.61] - Gregg Garner
Here is in the early two thousands, we would often get. I would often have preachers come to me, or not even preachers, usually just people heard me speak and they would look at what we're trying to do and they'll be like, you guys are so social gospel. We're more spoken word gospel. And to me, you can't dichotomize these things. Jesus, he even said, you can do what the Pharisees say, but don't do what they do. Which means that Jesus expected a more holistic model for the community, and the Pharisees failed to give them that model. So when he talked to John's disciples, he's like, go and tell John in Matthew eleven, what you see and what you hear. What you see are the actions. What you hear are the words. So as a community, we're supposed to be acting in such a way that people both see and hear. So it's both spoken in action. It's both things. So I often find it an insult when people are like, you guys are more secular humanists, philanthropists, use all the terms. You want to excuse yourself from doing the stuff that means something, because Jesus is the one who gave us this criteria. Do you want to tell me that Jesus was just insincerely trying to challenge the disciples to show them how much they can't do when in the wilderness with 5000 people, he's like, you guys feed them. Was that just a test? So that in the end we just go, wow, Jesus has incredible power and the disciples, they just don't. But God worked in spite of them. Is that the conclusion or is it what I believe it to be? That as Jesus disciples, we've been charged with an awesome responsibility and it's going to require the kind of faith and thanksgiving that Jesus demonstrated. Because with minimal resources we are expected now to feed multitudes. We are expected to take care of a lot of people. Now we know that the next day those people still follow Jesus. And now he wants to weed them out and he wants to figure out who's worthy of being a disciple. Because the disciples should be the ones that would contend with something like eat of my flesh, drink of my blood and really dive deep into the meaning of those things. So you can see in Jesus that he has the generalized concern for the well being of people, what they eat, what they're going to wear. He tells sermons on this stuff, right? But at the same time, if he's gonna have disciples, he wants disciples who are also concerned with the word. And we have to be both. We have, to me the actions have to result from the word and what I see too often. And if I was, if I wouldn't return my criticisms. You spoke in gospel, people like your actions don't match your words. Like you guys say a lot of things about the love of God and the gospel of Jesus and our depraved souls needing reconciliation and redemption and resurrection. But it's all this spiritual imagination concerning what happens with the person. Because now maybe they can use christian terms. You feel like something's happened when the spoken gospel should sow the seeds into the life of a human being, where it transforms, how they behave, how they act, what they do with their lives, how they raise their children, where they go. And so I think both, you know, there's also the camp who doesn't, like, we had a church one year come to slam, oh gosh, do you remember what I'm talking about? And they just, they just decided to tell us, you know, we're not sure we believe in Jesus. And we're like, this is the wrong camp.
[00:29:41.47] - Mitchell Buchanan
How did you get here?
[00:29:42.67] - Laurie Kagay
It's like in the mission statement.
[00:29:44.25] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, we just told it straight up. We're not, because they were getting on us. They're like, we don't really believe in Jesus, so we don't really like the challenges that are happening from the pulpit, and we're like, well, then this is not the right camp for you. So they started telling their kids, hey, you don't have to listen to them, but the things they're doing are really good. So you guys gotta know we get criticisms on both sides of the spectrum, but it's because we're the synthesis of the two, that's why. So people see what they wanna see, right?
[00:30:12.53] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah.
[00:30:12.90] - Gregg Garner
But I'm asking people, as you're listening to us on this podcast, don't overlook the one that you don't like, or don't overlook the one you like because you don't like the one that you're looking at. Like they're both there. And I think all communities have to have both. Our actions have to be a result of obedience, and obedience is a result of a command, and so people should not act without the command. That's why Jesus even said, and this is what Parker tried to get into, is that I only do what I see my father doing. We act in obedience as a result of a command. That's what we do. And the words we speak are the same. They come as a result of a command. So when those two things are tied together so that people can both see and hear, you're really engaged in the enlightening kind of discipleship that Matthew 28 is talking about. You're actually integrating people now into what it looks like to be a part of the kingdom where the ancient of days is given some glory, because we have to remember we've got a ruler that doesn't mind all these nations having their political power. He's. It doesn't bother him. He's the most secure king, the most secure ruler. I didn't start feeling this until, like, I. I got older and. And really became a professional in my own right, in certain disciplines where I didn't feel, like, threatened by anybody else's giftedness. You know, it just. It was a pleasure to see them excelling. And when they didn't, I was thankful if I had the kind of relationship with them where I could help them out. And it's a reciprocal relationship. They help me out, too. I'm not God. I fall short. But God, who doesn't is so gracious to extend such mercy. Even Jesus says, we have to remember that the rain falls on both the just and the unjust. What is he trying to communicate? He's not trying to say, nature just works on its own, and everybody gets it. It's crazy. He's trying to communicate, especially to agrarian community who understood rain to be a blessing of God. Polytheistic communities, the gods. But monotheistic communities like us, that rain that falls on both the just and unjust, that's God's watering system for economic livelihood amongst all peoples, regardless of whether they're just or injust. God loves people. God loves the world. And we have to remember that the grace and the mercy of God extends beyond our own human capacity to have understanding or to even allow. Sometimes. Sometimes we can be so closed about who should receive the grace and mercy of God that we rule out the people that it was designed for, and usually because we forget we were them. Especially if you grow up in a cultural Christianity, you might be like Simon, the Pharisees, like, I don't know, the one who was forgiven more, I don't know. Right? And we end up being like, judgmental people who label others based upon, like, bad forms of discernment, where instead of listening to Jesus, who wants to focus his attention on this woman, everyone else is calling sinful. Like, we need to pay attention to Jesus if he wants to focus on her and say, look at this woman, we should all look at her. And it's. It's important that we do according to what Jesus says.
[00:33:39.85] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah, that's so great. All of that was just threading, I think. Threading that how we are different, how God's kingdom is so different. And I think he's just so generous. What was not expected, right? Even from like, those of the mountain, which it's. It leads to all those things where Simon is just like, it doesn't compute. Of like, I don't know. What are you talking about? Like, and it's such a different model that something that was brought up, I think, with Matthew 28, is that even at the end there where he's commissioning them, there are still some who doubted.
[00:34:16.11] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:34:17.26] - Mitchell Buchanan
Which it's a subverting model of like, hey, we're on this mountain. They're like, what the heck? I thought we were supposed to be on Zion. There's all these confusions, or even how they're supposed to operate for us as a church community, because Jesus taught them all the way. There was like, hey, we're here. And then some still doubted. Should we just take that as, like, wherever we're at in this process?
[00:34:38.88] - Gregg Garner
So right now, even in our own community, right. Let's, like, those of you listening are not part of our community. You got your own community. So you could probably relate to this. But I figure it's always best to talk about what you know and what we know as our own experiences, and then we can analogize accordingly. I often tell people that I preach with, I'm not that preacher who's like, in 1814, Solomon Josiah trekked the Utah mountains. And I'm not that guy. Like his obscure historical references to prove my Bible illustration. Yeah, I'm more diving in our real life and what's going on currently. And I'm not insulting the other guys. Those guys are cool. I'm just not them. But, like, right now in our community, there are people who are doubting. That's no problem to me. That's not an issue as long as they get engaged in the mission. Because, see, they could be at the mountain doubting, but Jesus still charged them. Now you need to go and make disciples nations, because I have come to believe what Jesus knows. And that is, regardless of what doubts you have, if you engage in obedience, that's the venue for God to instill faith, which overcomes doubt, you have to be engaged. This is why James gives us the verse, faith without works. It's dead. So you gotta engage the mission of God's church. You gotta engage the great commission that Jesus gave, because as you do that, it will develop your faith in such a way that you can overcome that doubt. So I think that was a very, very, like, telling little thing in that text, because it lets us know that you may not understand everything that's happening, but if you can understand the mission objective enough to know that this is what you gotta do, and then you get yourself out there doing it, a lot of those doubts will be remedied with a built up faith.
[00:36:33.88] - Laurie Kagay
I love that. Yeah. The command doesn't change.
[00:36:36.17] - Gregg Garner
No, it doesn't.
[00:36:37.09] - Laurie Kagay
He knows that.
[00:36:38.03] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:36:38.48] - Laurie Kagay
The writers know it enough. Everyone knew it, but he still gives.
[00:36:42.61] - Gregg Garner
And I think Jesus, he knows us as humans. We vacillate the doubt that we have now, we may not have tomorrow, and we may have a different version of it the next week. So regardless of where we're at, just do the work by faith according to the word, and that becomes the venue where God can show up. And I love it because that's how the verse ends. And, lo, I'm with you always to the end of the age. Like Jesus is saying, you do this stuff, I'll show up. It's a guaranteed show up. And it doesn't have a term limit to the end of the age. Like, who knows when the end of the age is right? Like, this is indefinite. This is better than a 99 year lease or ownership, this extends beyond our lifetime. And I just love that thought that he's like, I know that. It's okay, you guys. Some of you doubt and you're here, no problem. Some of you guys are very optimistic and positive and you're worshipping awesome. Here's the work. Let's go do the work. And when you're doing that work, I'm guaranteed to be there with you in it. And I love it. Feels good.
[00:37:47.51] - Mitchell Buchanan
I think it's, they weren't dismissed of like, oh, we doubt it. It's like, all right, get those. Get them out of here. Like, close the doors.
[00:37:55.32] - Gregg Garner
We need to have a meeting about these doubters. We need to see what's going on.
[00:38:00.36] - Mitchell Buchanan
But then I think people just naturally, people can get comfortable at a place. I think Laurie mentioned this in her sermon where it's like, I'm just going to take a step back. Or it's like, you know, even if you're like a doubter, you know, quote unquote, that you could be fine of like, you know, I just need to reevaluate. And you can kind of just sit there where the challenge of this is that the, the commands are still there, the mission is still there. It's not like it, the active is like, you need to go. You need to live this out. It's not like I need to take my time. I'm not sure how to reevaluate. It's like, well, you still should be doing good. Works like that doesn't detract from that. It's like, and then your faith will build you up from there. I thought that was just an interesting thought on it because oftentimes, I think when there is that moment of doubt, it's like a place to pause and like, kind of step back where Jesus allows the doubt, but it's like the opportunity to step back, isn't there. It's like you're on the mountain, you're receiving this commission. It's like, kind of the other thing to do is to push forward instead of to kind of draw back, and.
[00:38:56.50] - Laurie Kagay
There's only eleven of them. So, like, you know, he's giving you that big of a command. It's not like, and he spoke to the hundreds, you know, who were. It's like, I think that's, that's sometimes the test, you know, like, where you face something that feels impossible and you're like, but this, you know, this is who we have. It feels like a small team, but you're like, if you get you you're one of the eleven. And you're like, nah, that's a hard thing. Yeah, but yeah, you're saying because it's.
[00:39:24.75] - Gregg Garner
A small team and if there's a some of them who are doubting on there, it can feel incredibly challenging. Yeah, but to Jesus, it wasn't discouraged.
[00:39:32.05] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah, to Jesus, he's still speaking it full of faith, looking at these guys who he knows.
[00:39:36.59] - Gregg Garner
And I think it's also important to remember that number was twelve until Judas did what he did. And so the eleven represent the remnant community, the remnant of the community. Cause twelve is that nation or community number. And so it's representing more than the number itself. It's talking about in communities, in your community, even though you can have some people who are doubting, you have other people who are worshiping now together. Go do. Go do. And as you do, he'll be with you. I'll be with you. And that. What's. What's the better way to get to know someone? Like, can I say this? Like, this summer I get to take two of my graduated kids on mission with me, and arguably a third in a very real way. And today I met with them real quick to help them pack, get ready. And I was so excited, like, more excited than I've been in a long time to do something like this, because these are my kids. I'm directly involved in their lives. So I took the oldest one, Genesis, and I just grabbed her and I said, hey, you want to know what I'm most excited about in the next month or so? She's like, what? And I was like, I get to be around you every day. And she actually had a different response than I thought she would. It was kind of sad. She was like, I just don't want to let you down. I was like, whoa, whoa. I said, let's try this again. Like, you be a third person. Pretend I'm doing this with some. Like, I'm another father talking to his daughter, and we're gonna reenact this. And I go, how'd that feel? That time? She goes, that was so sweet of the dad to do that. I was like, can you just be that daughter right now?
[00:41:21.42] - Mitchell Buchanan
At least she didn't say, like, I.
[00:41:22.67] - Gregg Garner
Need space or like, no, that didn't happen. She's such a good girl, man. She's such a good girl. But I'm happy to be with her every day, even. Because whatever's gone on with her in her adult life now has put such a heavy weight on her that she could even feel like, me doing that with her, it just introduces the kind of pressure that might incite her failure. I'm so happy to be with her because she's not going to experience that. There's not going to be a day where she's going to feel like this dooming sense of failure that's disqualifying her for whatever, because I'm going to be with her and I'm going to say, pick your head up. Hey, you're wrong about judging yourself like that. Stop doing that. This is a new day. Yeah, you made a mistake. Who cares? You learn from it, right? It's over. It's the past. Like, I get to be there to do that now. If me, using Jesus's analogy, if me as an earthly father knows how to do good stuff for my kids, how much more does our heavenly father know how to do that by his spirit? So when Jesus says, I'm going to be with you, like, we have to do the things that trigger that presence.
[00:42:24.55] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:42:25.57] - Gregg Garner
And that's also why I'm excited. Why are so many people are going on mission this summer? Like, man, if any of you online would like to donate to us $75,000, I have an additional 30 people I would like to take with me to different places around the world. And that would cover the airfare pretty much. And I'm positive we cover the airfare, then they would go and we would be able to do a lot of good things. But that would, like, go awesome for the people in our community because I think you guys know, I mean, you hadn't gone in a while, right? The last time you went was with me last year. When's the last time you went with me?
[00:43:01.11] - Mitchell Buchanan
2017.
[00:43:03.59] - Gregg Garner
Was that it?
[00:43:05.07] - Mitchell Buchanan
It was.
[00:43:05.86] - Gregg Garner
Oh, I tried to bring again, but it didn't work out. Huh. That's what happened. Yeah, that's what happened.
[00:43:09.86] - Mitchell Buchanan
So before that was slam stalwart last year?
[00:43:12.15] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. You were in this year. So what, what, what? When was it the last time you were there? 19. Okay, so it's been five years. And before that was 17.
[00:43:20.23] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:43:20.73] - Gregg Garner
And then before that was when? 1010. So the gap between ten and 17, I bet you when you went in 17, it was so helpful.
[00:43:27.88] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:43:28.42] - Gregg Garner
With, like, your vision, your enthusiasm, 19 probably was able to keep the momentum up. Where are you feeling right now? In 25, four to five years later?
[00:43:39.88] - Mitchell Buchanan
I feel. I think I feel fairly. Pretty good. I want to go.
[00:43:45.11] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:43:45.50] - Mitchell Buchanan
Like, but I. I mean, we chatted the other night and I was like, I still hold it in my heart of, like, that's where, you know, I want to be serving NB, but I think even just knowing, like, where this is the key.
[00:43:56.76] - Gregg Garner
I want everyone to listen to this, keep going.
[00:43:59.17] - Mitchell Buchanan
But I. There's a gap of things. Like, I have an experience with, like, relationships or where things are at, and, like, either how I can contribute, or it's just like, hey, I want to be part of what's going on. And it feels that there's. It's almost like, unless I'm there, I can't catch up enough to be like, all right, now I can get my head around what's going on.
[00:44:18.44] - Gregg Garner
Okay, good. Yeah, that was very helpful. I think a lot of people can feel like that, but here's where I want to bridge that gap.
[00:44:24.53] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:44:25.05] - Gregg Garner
We have a saying in our community that I'm actually trying to get the media group to rerelease a new t shirt of where what we do here is what we do there. Because what you're doing with what you do with NFS and what you do with slam is creating the model, the illuminating model that is duplicated in these other regions. And without guys and gals like you who are making here a city on a hill, we would have no light to shine to other communities. So my encouragement to any of you who aren't able to go is to remember that we're all in it together and all being in together. We couldn't point to the city on a hill if there wasn't a city on the hill to point at. And I'm so thankful we have that as a christian community because we have people like yourself who are patient for your time. I mean, also, I think it's important to note that in the last five years, how many kids have you had in the last five years?
[00:45:25.30] - Mitchell Buchanan
I want to say we have four kids. Yeah, we have.
[00:45:28.82] - Gregg Garner
How old's Jacoby?
[00:45:30.53] - Mitchell Buchanan
He's. Why is the test? He'll be eight next.
[00:45:33.73] - Gregg Garner
Okay. All right. All right. So then Clark is like six or seven, right? Clark's like six or seven.
[00:45:38.98] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah, Clark is, yeah.
[00:45:40.46] - Gregg Garner
So that means half of your kids came in the last five years.
[00:45:43.42] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:45:43.94] - Gregg Garner
Half your kids came last five years. And that's a lot.
[00:45:46.98] - Mitchell Buchanan
It's a lot.
[00:45:47.55] - Gregg Garner
That's a lot. Because they went from two to four in the last five years. So a lot of our people have these very pragmatic reasons why they haven't been able to go. And then all of us decided, because if you don't know our community, we have a christian school as well, which is a christian private school. So all our kids are in christian private school, and in your thirties, there's that whole increase in financial responsibility, child responsibility. It gets to be really tough to travel. So my prayers for those who haven't in our church in a while, that they'd be encouraged by the fact that they're still fulfilling what Jesus expects, being that salt of the earth and that light of the world by doing the work that they can do that's here. And to not dichotomize there and here, but to see them growing together, because that's exactly what's happening and that Jesus is with us as we do that. So keep doing the work. You know, like this, this summer with these podcasts or with slam and NFS, just keep doing the work because it's building capacity. I mean, even some of your NFS guys got to go this summer to El Salvador to help push some things forward.
[00:47:00.92] - Mitchell Buchanan
And Lauren and Max all went.
[00:47:02.92] - Gregg Garner
And Sarah. Sarah, which is awesome, you know? Yeah, yeah. But, like, it's just so cool that they could confidently go, having had the experience they've had here, to help a here become there. And we have many more examples of that. But, like, they wouldn't even have the opportunity to do that without you and Zach and Corey and Keith having built a. What gave the venue for them to become that which now is bridging the here to there abroad. And I think that's. That's something we can overlook because our faith needs built up, and our faith gets built up according to the Bible. But by us building it up with love and into one another, seeing it.
[00:47:50.38] - Mitchell Buchanan
Outside of that perspective, it's like, oh, there's all stars. You know, Greg goes every summer. There's all stars that can really do it. And then they're like, that's not how we are approaching our community life. It's like, no, we're in this together. So it's like, do your role. Like, what's your role? Like, hey, do it.
[00:48:04.13] - Gregg Garner
Awesome. Wait while. Since you brought it up, dude. Like, it really is. Everybody can only do their role, right? Right. Like, if you want my role, please, you could have it. But while it's my role I have to fulfill. There you go. Mitchell. Mitchell will form the committee search committee. He'll evaluate all your applications. But I just. But, like, the point that you're making is so legitimate that everybody has a part to play, and everybody has to play their part. The part you play is dependent on your. Your own personal capacity. Right. The way that I teach authority in the Bible. And we first hit on it in a class that Lori now teaches called reading the Tanakh, which used to be ot survey, is that your authority emerges where you develop competency that is intersected with responsibility. And people have that in our community, and they just need to operate according to that position. Like, for me, it's quite natural that I find myself in all these places and doing all these things, because this is the only thing I've done since I was 18 years old. I haven't done anything else. This is all I do all day long. So, of course, every year I'm growing, too. I'm developing more cultural awareness, better language fluency, geographical knowledge is increasing. Just the whole tricks of the trade, if you will. Right? Just like anybody who spent more time, but I haven't spent the amount of time that either of you have spent in your disciplines. I can't do what you do. So I think I, with that all star consideration there, we really got to hear the teaching of Paul, where he talks about the body of Christ and the various parts, and that there are even some that are reserved for honor, though they even are initially hidden. And this is where I would really love to grow as a person. But I think it might be the responsibility of another body part. And I could totally help, and that is to do better at recognizing the work that various people do, that the stuff that may be concealed that people don't see. Because in my heart, like, as a leader, probably, I have an epiphany monthly, and it goes along these lines. Okay, tonight I am just gonna drink a coke zero, and I am going to knock out 120 letters to everybody by hand saying thank you for the things you do. And then the night unfolds, and I'm like, it's 02:30 a.m. and I'm exhausted, and I don't want to coke now. And it's like, I can't do it, but it's about monthly. I find some other creative way. I'm going to try and say thank you to every person for everything. And I need to do it. I need to do it. But I also know that. But the reality of developing a close relationship with God has you doing things, not because other people say thank you, but because you recognize that your role by faith is to serve God and to do what it is God created you to do. And I'm taking Luke 17 as a sample text for that. You guys remember the guys who Jesus talks about? They've been working all day, and then the master comes home, and then they go, and the question is like, do they sit and eat, or do they prepare and wait on, even though it's the end of their day? And their response would be, you know, we're just servants in all of this, and we're doing what we're supposed to do. And while there's a lot to that text, I think one of the points would be that we have to recognize that as servants of Jesus, there's a reality that says, am I doing this for God or not? And I think people who do the best are always the ones who have that relationship with God, where God could be like, you're doing good, son. You're doing good, daughter. They sustain the longest, but at the same time, I know that God can use us to encourage each other. If you feel like you play an insignificant part and you're not part of the all star team or something like that, don't give up. Figure out where your competency intersects with some responsibility you can take and develop that. It'll shock you where it leads, because I know people now who find themselves in very key positions. That's all they did. They just kept serving faithfully in that arena. And if anything, the catch up becomes the very normal human struggle of making finances match your desire to serve and what you can do, because not everything that you do that's helpful and good to the world pays well. God is doing a wonderful thing in our community to even adjust that. And I just. I hope to encourage everybody in our church and those of you out there in other churches that God is the one who can help you understand what you can do right now and motivate you, and you are inherently a part of his body. You don't have to wait on the popular group to invite you over for dinner. You don't have to wait on people with the positions and titles to tell you you're doing something official. There's so many ways in which you can get involved, and if there isn't a, like, just be friendly and talk to somebody and say, I have this idea. You might find that they say, hey, that's already happening. You should join this group over here and be a part of that. Or someone say, hey, we don't do any of that. Talk to this person. Maybe that's something we can do, and you can help us make that happen. But don't be the kind of person that whines or complains or just goes with her friends and talks about all the ways in which you're indirectly jealous about somebody else. It doesn't build anybody up. In fact, it has the capacity to tear them down. And I think if we were to look further into this verse, you know, the Bible ends or the book ends at this point. But if we were to look further at it, I'd want to find out how long you contend with the doubting before you move into a different place. I would want to discover that. I think acts gives us some hints on that, especially when all of a sudden God's like, I need Paul Apostle. That's a big indicator something's a little off with the other guys. But, yeah, thanks for letting me do that. A little pastoral moment.
[00:54:56.69] - Mitchell Buchanan
This was great. Just a great time chatting through God's word and trying to make it practical and just live it out with our community and all of you out there. So thanks for joining us. If this is your first time, please subscribe like five star review. All the things you're supposed to do, but just remember, these are great conversations that we want to be having at our kitchen tables, at work, places, where our friends are at. We never want God's word just to be preached on Sundays and kind of left there. So if this sparked you to want to know more, these are Greg's sermons from Matthew 28 and deuteronomy four. We'll have those labeled on YouTube. You can check those out, rewatch them, pause, jot down notes. There's so much richness in there that I think it'll really kick off just an awesome summer of ministry. So thanks for joining us. Until next time, we'll see you later.
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