In this Podcast, the speakers discuss the value of generosity and the importance of recognizing and appreciating the generosity of others. They emphasize the need for timely and generous behavior, as well as the concept of the "perfect gift" as wisdom from God. The speakers highlight the importance of community, accountability, and managing resources effectively for long-term impact. They also discuss the role of leadership in being transparent and accountable for resource allocation. Overall, they believe that seeking wisdom from God and having open conversations within the church community will lead to growth and investment in one another.
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[00:00:10.09] - Gregg Garner
Hey, everybody. My name is Gregg Garner, and I am joined today by Mitchell Buchanan Whoop whoop. And Jason Carpenter. Hello. And On this continued value of generosity, we are going to look at Mitchell's sermon, Which came from the book of James chapter one verse seventeen, which reads, every generous act of giving with every perfect gift is from above coming down from the father of lights With whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Mitchell, I would love to know What it was that you thought you you were really trying to drive to their home, But maybe the package wasn't delivered to the door. What how could you help Amazon Get us that prime delivery
[00:01:01.60] - Mitchell Buchanan
I'm not helping them with anything! Let me think. That's a good that's a good question, Greg. I love being, prodded in that way. No. I think It's hard to reflect on overall my sermon and what I feel like I lacked or, like, what kinda didn't hit all the way home.
[00:01:27.70] - Gregg Garner
I'm not saying that you lack something. I'm just, like, thinking there was something that you really wanted people to get. And if you want to just take this opportunity to reiterate it.
[00:01:38.40] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah. something I would wanna say is, like, the main jam is I think the text is pretty clear throughout James of the contrast between there there's some that are wealthy and some that are quite poor in that In that community that he's addressing. And I think even the key verse of seeing every generous gift is from above from the father of whites. I think The text around that and how that's set up, we should see ourselves as believe as believers, as people that fulfill needs that are in our midst. So I think something it that I I feel from James one. It's not just, hey. Every generous and perfect gifts from the father of lights that we Kinda turn our heads up and just attribute everything, like, thank you, lord, or thank you that Mhmm. That we can still see, hey. This is a a communal effort. This is An effort from those people beside us that were meeting needs in our midst and that we can see that activity as, Someone is helping my needs. Someone's giving in a way that's very generous. That they're, of course, manifesting the spirit of God, and I think we can attribute, Hey. That's the Lord's activity is that my brother is helping me out right now.
[00:02:49.90] - Gregg Garner
I think some people would hear you say that and feel like you're, belittling the power of God and what it is that he's able to do. Because you're saying, like, instead of people going to God and saying, thank you for giving us Good and perfect gift. Mhmm. Instead, we need to go and identify in other people their generosity and then Say that's the spirit of God working in their life. How how could you assure me that's not what's happening when you're saying those things?
[00:03:19.00] - Mitchell Buchanan
I think if we have a mentality of if I receive generosity, if I am given something that That we should always attribute it to the Lord, but I think we can expand our vision That we aren't the the text is pretty clear in drawing those distinct differences. So it's not like, hey. We we don't acknowledge if Someone's wealthy or poor, we see all things coming from the Lord. I think those differences are apparent, and I think to ignore them or just to focus solely on, Hey, every good and perfect gifts from above. I think that definitely is true. I think if we have the mentality of no, it's from everyone around us, we get in a weird social situation Where it's comparative and it all has to be equal or it's jealousy and that I'm defined by everyone around me. I think rather the text wants us to focus on, like, we're sustained by the Lord, that when we have lacked that we focus on the Lord, he gives us endurance. But I think James continues to try to prod of, like, that that is met by those around us, and I don't think we always know in what way it is met. So I think Our mentality should always be like, no. Thank you, lord. Like, that this this is such a good thing that's happened in my life.
[00:04:33.00] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I think we're getting somewhere.
[00:04:34.80] - Mitchell Buchanan
Okay.
[00:04:35.19] - Gregg Garner
My concern is that someone would hear what you said at the outset. And, again, Here, you kinda move more, like, along the lines of, like, a a people oriented type of religion that, Tips a hat to to God at the end. And I and I and I think some people would be very comfortable with that. I think other people Would would, could be offended because they they do want to develop their relationship with God and acknowledge God. But, I guess I'm looking for you to help me understand how, those two things could exist together. I I do find it, that the text is revealing God's position as a father Mhmm. In the text. So it makes me think of parental analogies. And I know that, I remember being a kid at church, and it was time to, like, give money to the missionaries, you know, for the offering. I didn't have any money, but my parents would give me, like, a dollar or something, you know, put it in my hand, and then I would go up and put it in the missionary plate. And I felt pretty good, you know, about that. Now the origin of that money was my parents. Right. But I was the conduit or the vessel Mhmm. Right. By which that money made it Mhmm. To the the missionary family. So I I think maybe an an analogy like that could help people to understand that god is the source. Right. Because even the concept of father of lights Within whom there's no variation or shadow, due to change. Like, the idea here is, like, faithfulness and consistency, But also, a source. Mhmm. Right? When we're talking about the shadow, of of of change, we're talking about time. Right? I I think we all know what a sundial is. Yeah. So if you have a sundial and you have a light coming down, the the dial's shadow moves According to time. Right? The passing of time. And this text is seeming to communicate to us That, god's consistency defies even time. That God is not bound to time when it comes to How it is that he wants to reveal himself even through generous acts and, gifts according to the text. So that being the case, if if I'm thinking about God who's the father and, like, the concept of father of lights here Has him in, like, the dual position of, like, the god because you get images of creation. You get the sundial concept. You get Space and time are, like, two things that we often are intangibles in terms of how we understand the created order. But the the wisdom here is that, God then, according to what you're saying, Who can be a father to his kids is going to develop that consistency, of generosity or or care and love through the obedience of his kids who end up carrying that forward, And this is how, time is defied. You know? And and to me, the implication here is that this is a value That has to be taught in in the family of God. Yeah. That because if you ask pragmatically how, like, we we can think about it philosophically And and start going, well, god is ageless. He's immortal. Of course, there's no variation. He's he's timeless. He's ageless. But when we talk about time, we're rarely talking about God. We're talking about human beings Mhmm. Who are subject to that and God who's the author of it, who created it. How does how does that timelessness emerge except that, we are taught this over the course of generations? And I think the Father imagery helps us to get there.
[00:08:34.39] - Mitchell Buchanan
I think also the the text because they'll describe a wealthy person in language that withers away. It's like a Flower where the petals fall. It draws a contrast with the timelessness you're talking about the Lord where and I think that's that's so great because our wealth can just vacillate So quickly on, like, a bad business decision, you'll see in Ecclesiastes and it's all gone or Somewhere where it it can feel very secure and then, You know, just slip away, and it's like we we don't have. And I think what you're talking about is, like, I don't think the text even derides, like, a wealthy person is a bad person. I think it's like when a wealthy person does not respond to a brother in need. I think that's where even the text has strong words to say about it.
[00:09:19.10] - Gregg Garner
Especially If they're part of this family
[00:09:21.00] - Mitchell Buchanan
Correct. I think that's the underlying
[00:09:22.39] - Gregg Garner
And I agree with you. There's there's the the text is not trying to Say anything negative inherently about people with wealth
[00:09:29.89] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:09:30.29] - Gregg Garner
But it is charging them with the responsibility To act as the children of the father who gives generously and that you know, even in our culture, when we talk about Time and its origin, if we wanna mythologize it, we talk about father time. Mhmm. You know, that you got father time.
[00:09:46.39] - Mitchell Buchanan
Undefeated. Yeah. Undefeated is father time.
[00:09:49.50] - Gregg Garner
Who 's just, you know, this this overseer of the generations remains consistent. Well, in our biblical text, we we don't identify those mythological, creatures. We we identify that God sits in this role in this position. And then I think popularly today when you hear about wealth and you hear people, like, giving you revelations on wealth, they'll talk about generational wealth. They have to produce generational wealth. And generational wealth is produced by often, withholding, Saving, investing, discipline. You know, people have their different things. I don't think any of it's inherently bad. But according to this text, it seems like the revelation is that our father who has, been here since the whole thing began who continues in faithful sustainability. We're his kids. And, As you pointed out, in in the generations, you have, wealth that exists in families, but that wealth is not in and of itself sustainable. But, again, it goes back to the the character of the persons Mhmm. Who now throughout the generations can sustainably exhibit The father in heaven's way of being, which is, generous and gift giving.
[00:11:08.39] - Jason Carpenter
Yeah. I think something you were saying, Greg, that Made me think about stewardship the way that you're talking about, like, your your analogy of being at church and your parents giving you something and then you giving that on. I think similarly if we're following that imagery in this text, it's like, if God's our father and he's so generous, We are then given things that we would be good stewards of so that when we encounter people in our family faith who have need, we have a responsibility To be good stewards of that and give also. I think that was something
[00:11:40.39] - Gregg Garner
Yeah So instead of investing in Two systems of this world that, like, the grass wither And fall away because they're part of a created order. Mhmm. We now invest into The the the father's family. Right. And we act generously as he's generous to see them thriving. Because a big part of the back Drop on James is that there there, is this economic class distinction between the poor and the rich. By the time you get to chapter five, You you get a pretty clear charge that there are some people in the community who aren't paying their workers on time.
[00:12:14.70] - Jason Carpenter
Withholding payment. Yeah.
[00:12:15.39] - Gregg Garner
Right? And because they're not paying their workers on time, they think that, it's it there's of no consequence, but the text wants to say that god in heaven hears Right. The Plaints Mhmm. Of those workers. And so James is giving them the wisdom to say, hey. There's another character that's involved in your considerations here That that maybe you're not getting, direct enforcement. Mhmm. Because sometimes when we do something and we think because we got away with it, there must be no Consequence, but James is saying, god is listening, hearing the cries, and watching, and he wants you To do things in a timely manner and get these things to people. And so it's it's not even that sometimes I think generosity, we think is gratuity every time. We think generous giving means that it's giving something freely to somebody who doesn't deserve it. But the context for James, Twofold. In the first chapter, the thing that God wants to give is wisdom. That's what we learned right after the first couple verses. Right? This is something he'll give liberally if you ask. You know, our thing got me. Literally, if you ask. But then going to chapter five, you can see that there is an act of generosity that exists in paying Wages on time. And when you don't do that, it something that god is sensitive to.
[00:13:32.70] - Mitchell Buchanan
Mhmm.
[00:13:33.29] - Gregg Garner
So I think when we read this here And we qualify every generous act. It's a spectrum of generosity that again goes back to, like, obligations. things that we're supposed to do. And then it it also tags on the reputation of God. Mhmm. Because if we are identifying that God is using the kids as a vessel Mhmm. To Extend his generosity. When we don't do that, that's not impacting God's Yeah. God's reputation, which, for he can only resolve By getting the people in line. So when you read that chapter five text and he's like, you've gotta pay him on time. If they still decide not to pay him on time, People in the community are are going rarely do people go, wow. This is everybody's fault for not being obedient to God. That's why this isn't happening. Right. More often, people will say something's wrong. This isn't right. Mhmm. And they they will cry out to god and say, god, Do something, and then they jump to evil rather than recognizing that there needs to be growth. Mhmm. Because I I Mitchell, what do you think about, like, the the concept of perfect Gift. In your study, what is perfect gift about? Is this like a the really right gift? Is that what that means? I don't know.
[00:14:46.79] - Mitchell Buchanan
I didn't dig into, like, that that particular nuance of, like, every you know, the how each gift is perfect. I think it would just be, like, what What is needed? That would be my, like, assumption going in, but I didn't, like, spend a ton of time Gotcha. On unearthing what every perfect gift is.
[00:15:02.89] - Gregg Garner
But I know that this letter is to the diasporic community, which means they're spread out amongst the Gentiles Right. But they have Jewish origins. Mhmm. And being spread out amongst the Gentiles, This is also a latter let letter. So likely, a lot of them entered into a a diaspora that, has them now experiencing Gentile or Hellenistic culture Yeah. To a great degree. Now in in Hellenism, The concept of perfect had to do with the stars and the planets and, like, you know, the different orbs that were in the sky Or the lights. Right. So when when to me, when I'm I'm reading this, I can't help but hear the Hellenistic overtones Yeah. That James is trying to appeal to as he's discussing Hebrew wisdom, which we know like the grass of the field that's coming from, like, even Hebrew prophetic texts Mhmm. And wisdom text, but then you're you're looking at this concept of perfection. I think what I wanna communicate here is I don't believe That this is talking about, like, the well thought out gift. Like that super awesome gift that came from God, dude. Like, I don't I don't think that's
[00:16:11.50] - Mitchell Buchanan
gas cards didn't come from God. The Visa check Card's didnt come from God!
[00:16:16.00] - Gregg Garner
I nstead, it's like we're looking at for the Greeks understanding that the worlds in which they were created and their position because remember, even for them, they they would they would highlight the lights as ways in which they made sense of direction Ways in which they made sense even their own historical narratives Mhmm. What happens to their heroes? Like, that they they these guys are coming from those lights and returning to those lights. Mhmm. And, there's there's a gift then with respect to the kind of direction that these lights in the heavens give, and that's because The these things are, you know, like, we we, think about astronomy, and we have the science of How things are moving in solar systems and how orbits, and and the gravity of different stars pull things into their atmosphere. So, like, we have all of these words. Right? But for them, the idea was, like, these things got placed in the heavens, and that was their position. They had fixed positions. That's why you could follow the North Star Had a fixed position. And if you're lost, dude, that North Star is a gift.
[00:17:25.50] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:17:25.79] - Gregg Garner
Like, it was placed there, and it's gonna give you direction Yeah. And you're gonna be illuminated out of whatever lostness you experience. So I think a pretty cool thing about this text is that, the the generosity of God includes direction. And there's a gift when we're able to receive wisdom from God. That's that's a direction, and that this is this is a generosity That can exist in our generations if we even continue to share this kind of wisdom. Mhmm. And we share that direction That comes from the father. And to me, that's why in contrast to the generational wealth where people are investing into, different systems, They're gonna ensure that their future's intact or their children's future or their children's children. This here has it so that we are investing into our children The wisdom that comes from God, which is the perfect gift to give us direction into the future because there's no shadow of change in He's consistency. There's there's something fixed about the way in which god Right. Created the world and and made order. I mean, that's wisdom literature. Right? Wisdom literature is that, there's the created order, and god designed it in such a way that we can learn things. Mhmm. While the apostle in Romans chapter one will highlight that there's, like, this general revelation, just by observing Right. Creation and the created order. Ecclesiastes is all about observing the created order in such a way that you derive Wisdom. So I I think this the there's something very powerful about recognizing that, Helping people to understand the direction that God gives or the light that he gives us, and and we know all of the metaphors in the Bible about that light. It's, it's the word of God, the Lamb to our feet, the light to our path. When we are able to give and receive that from one another, There's there's something incredibly sustainable about what God wants to do. And I think that in the first chapter, because the community is going through all these trials, and they're supposed to, like, count Count all this all joy, which is gonna be like an act of faith. Right. The his response here is that, yeah, you need to develop faith as you persevere, but you also need to gain wisdom from God, which he will give to you freely, but you've gotta ask of it. And so then the people are kinda preoccupied. Because usually when people are going through hard times and trials, They they they are trying to figure out their own ways out of it.
[00:19:48.59] - Gregg Garner
And I think for most people throughout history, the way you get out of a hard time is you pay your way out of Yeah. You find some way of garnering resources so that you can, fix the problem. Right? I'm sick. I need more therapy. I need more money. I'm I have debt. Gotta pay it off. I need more money. I need rest. I'd it would be nice to go on that trip. I need more money. Whatever it is, Right. We we head in that direction, but this text is is wanting to highlight. I believe that the perfect gift is the wisdom that comes from God that gives us direction. And it's relevant throughout all the generations. Yeah. It won't change. There's a consistency to it, and we can pass it down. So when I think about, like, generosity and the investments that we make and, like, it's like, do I invest in my child's biblical education, or do I Get worried about them playing club whatever.
[00:20:43.09] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:45.00] - Gregg Garner
You know, it's like, which one is sustainable? Which one's gonna wither with the grass? And which one is going to carry them into the next generation. So I I I don't know. I thought that was a a cool little thing to bring up in the text.
[00:20:56.40] - Mitchell Buchanan
up in the text. From what you were saying, something that I that I I I really liked was how I think as the book goes on and then just an acknowledgment that, like, In in our dealings with one another, even if they're, you know, financial obligations that the Lord is present. And that should, like, reorient even Our understanding of how we deal with one another, not in a way of, like, oh, crap. The lord's here. I better not, like, screw someone over. But, like, Even having a confidence of someone who lacks of, like, hey. The Lord is here in, like, my social relationships and interactions. Like, I can have, like, a vulnerability and a trust that, like, I can, like, even expose my need or, like, you know, say, hey. I'm in need, and that won't be uh
[00:21:37.70] - Gregg Garner
But, you know, when people do that, though, I think one of the things I'm trying to drive home here I know it was your sermon, but one of the things in this podcast I wanna drive home.
[00:21:45.20] - Mitchell Buchanan
You're cooking is cool. No. No. No.
[00:21:46.59] - Gregg Garner
If you're if you're bringing up that need with me and I lack resources Uh-huh. I have an eternal resource In God's wisdom. For sure. And I need to recognize that this is something that God wants to give to you. And so I shouldn't be afraid To give you that light. Mhmm. To give you that wisdom. I should recognize it as a generous act. Mhmm. And and I think sometimes people feel bad about Giving advice or sharing things. Because you can have a friend. I know I've had friends who are like, yeah. We're in this hard situation. Did this. And I'm just thinking through my head, yes. Because you did this, this, this, and this. Yeah. Like, you shouldn't have done those things. I don't know why you did that. Mhmm. And and but, like, I don't wanna talk about it because it seems offensive Or it seems like, it's none of my business, and I just need to help them. So I think we get fixated on the solution rather than looking at And, valuing the fact that this person could use some direction. This person could use some wisdom. Because I think we've all seen where you have a person I don't know. Let's say they got into debt. You help them with their debt, and then what's happens next year? They're in debt again. They needed some wisdom. Yeah. They needed some direction from God so that they moved forward in life Instead of kept, you know, staying put in that place. Does that make sense?
[00:23:03.09] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah. Totally. It totally makes sense.
[00:23:06.29] - Gregg Garner
If you're gonna share something with me, I may not have the resources to do anything about what you're saying.
[00:23:10.09] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:23:10.70] - Gregg Garner
But that shouldn't eliminate you from contributing and being generous . And having a conversation, asking questions, and offering direction light from God His word.
[00:23:20.70] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right. Which it you know, Chapter one shows that god's wisdom is given freely to anyone who asks, and it does contrast, I think, the, you know, the Illusory powers of money where, you know, God's wisdom is everlasting. It is given to everyone who seeks. And I think there's opportunities that we have What with whatever it is, it's time. It's my, you know, financial resources. It's maybe physical resources to share. Mhmm. If I am using you know, tapping into God's wisdom, which is generous, which is, like, something that will extend to other people, But like what you're saying, in having moments to invest into those around us, into people that that will go through the generations and not Just invest into a a particular thing of, an experience or something that I can, like, possess That is like that that's gonna, produce so much more fruit, produce so much more, I think, even blessing from God. And it it orients our minds where it's like we're still living in according where God is in our midst, not that I am individually trying to live out my Faith, it's like, no. No. God is in our midst together. Mhmm. So when I can share that wisdom with one another, it's bringing God into every conversation. So it's like Financial Yeah. It's like a a soma, like a spiritual relationship someone has with their community. We're trying to, like, birth forth, I think, God's That conversation with the Lord and I think in James just directly, like, hey. There's, like, rich and there's poor. Like, have you all talked about this? Like, why are you treating them different? It's, like, Kind of exploding that wisdom into even very, very practical conversations of, like, invite the lord into into your dealings. Invite the lord into, like, How you live your life. And I think what you're saying is, like, so awesome because if we're in that mentality of, like, it all becomes a financial thing and it's like, oh, it just becomes this dichotomy of, like, rich and poor. You just get in a space where you individually are relying on one another or you feel like you're just Compelled to be giving if you're in a rich or poor position. But, like, when we come before the Lord and say, like, give us you know, I'm seeking wisdom. We're seeking wisdom as a community. Please give that to us, and then a conversation can be birthed from there. We're gonna see, you know, every good and perfect gift, I think. that make sense?
[00:25:40.50] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:41.20] - Mitchell Buchanan
I was just trying to give some legs and, like, I think work out even practically how we...
[00:25:52.50] - Gregg Garner
I think especially in Christian communities a person of resources and you come into a Christian community where, just like in this community that James is writing to, you have a lot of people who have a lot of needs. are gonna be looking to you for answering a lot of the problems.
[00:26:02.90] - Mitchell Buchanan
For sure.
[00:26:03.40] - Gregg Garner
And they're gonna expect your resources To answer those problems. And, if if you use all those resources to answer those problems and People aren't guided by the wisdom of God. All those resources will be will be lost. Yeah. And then now you're all lost Together. I think it's important to remember that the acts community, right, in in their desire to do good Mhmm. Found themselves collecting all of their resources, Putting them at the apostle's feet, trying to manage this new reality that they believe Jesus had ushered in, and then It all culminates in challenges and persecutions that ultimately, lead to them being characterized as poor. Right? When the when the economy tanks and they enter into what the Bible call famine and James is assassinated, like, The community now becomes the recipients of Paul the Apostle's Missionary Journey offering collection. Right? So that text helps us to understand that you can have people who go, yeah. It's gonna be generous. It's good to share. But if you don't have people who have the wisdom of God to figure out what to do with those resources and how to teach people
[00:27:18.29] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:27:18.79] - Gregg Garner
To manage those resources, You're just gonna create a bunch of people who ultimately are gonna find themselves poor together. And, when I when I read those Tex and James where it's like talking about avoiding the impartiality between the rich and the poor, which is the big point there. Right? It's not like just saying Act like nobody's rich and nobody's poor. It's like, don't don't discriminate based upon people's economic class. It seems the reason for that is because we can all learn from each other, And we all need each other to grow.
[00:27:48.00] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:27:48.29] - Gregg Garner
The rich person needs the the the poor person to balance out the the potential greed and And evil that emerges out of loving a resource over God and and and others. And then the poor person needs The the wealthy person to help them get out of a situation that maybe without their help, they can't move forward in life. Mhmm. But at the same time, you you wanna manage that. So, I'll give you a practical example. Right? And and then this is I don't know if anybody is gonna judge you for this, but I'll give you a very practical example. There was a guy. He had come around, And he was actually with another guy who who was, operating in, like, a liaison position with him, and he they were asking for money to help them with their ministry. And they were asking me for a big donation to go towards the ministry. And the ministry was getting people saved. People were coming to know the Lord. And I asked how much it was gonna cost. It was the extravagant amount of money, and it was gonna need a lot of people to come together. Seven digits plus. That's not what they're asking me for, but they're asking for a bunch of people to in totality To get there. You know? And, so I just started asking some questions. And as I kept listening, I said, have you been the one that Has been mostly financially responsible for making this happen, and the person admits that they were and and because they were doing well financially at a good business. It was going successful, and so he had the money to be able to do this very generous thing that was exposing people to the gospel. And, I listened. I asked more questions, and, I found out, like, some of the shortcomings of of the program. So then I was told, would you still give to it so we could have it happen? And I said, well, you know, your goals seem to be more aligned with A local community presence and having a place there. Why don't you take what could be one fourth of what you're trying to raise, Invest it into this other thing that would then be a venue for implementing the kind of ministry of it. It'll be on a smaller scale, But it's it's gonna be sustainable.
[00:29:58.20] - Jason Carpenter
Yeah.
[00:29:58.90] - Gregg Garner
And they're, like, really fixated on the thing that they were doing, And then they asked me to donate again. I said, here's the deal. I won't donate, but I will invest with you into this other operation when when you're ready. And I'll do it at and I and I named five times the amount they were asking for to go into that opportunity. In the moment, I don't think it set well At all. Months later, I I would have some communication with the person who's like, I was so and and this this this person, English is not their first language, so it's a little choppy. And they are, like, trying to tell me I was so kind of put off by, you talking to me like that, but then I realized you might have been the only person telling me the truth Over the course of all this, so I I have more questions, and I'm worn out, and I'm tired, and I'm exhausted. And, I I said, well, for me, I didn't. If I if I just give that away, you're just gonna spend it. You're not thinking about how to make it work. Yeah. How to get something Out of it, that would last, that would be sustainable. So I I narrow the scope of what I would be a part of because I wanna see it sustainable and that have accountability. It'd be the harder thing, but it'd be the better thing. And, I think that some people would judge me because they would be thinking I'm not, being generous. I'm not giving towards the advance of the gospel, which I would say that's not the case. I wanted to see the advance of the gospel, but in a qualitative fashion that made someone Responsible for resources. And that, just because I'm giving resources, I could be generous in that I I'm I'm taking a risk. Yeah. Right? Giving someone resources to try something that you're not sure is gonna work is a risk and if you give it with no consequence, Especially when it comes, like, ministerial things like this. It's one thing to give generously to somebody who needs to eat. That's different.
[00:31:48.00] - Mitchell Buchanan
For sure. Yeah.
[00:31:48.79] - Gregg Garner
Right? That's different than, putting together some kind of something that is, for, extending the gospel. Mhmm. You know? You guys get what I'm saying? Right?
[00:31:58.29] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:31:58.70] - Gregg Garner
So, I'm just thinking That when it comes to, the impartiality segment in the book of James, Where it it it's not to ignore people's economic class. It's to bring emphasis to the fact that they exist And that also they all need the wisdom of God and that they need each other and that they have to help each other grow. People don't become wealthy because they just, give everything, like like, wild. Right? Look at the the second son in the prodigal son story when the younger son. And he goes out and says he lavishly spends. Right? He comes next next scene, he's eating with the pigs. Right? He doesn't he doesn't have any resources. Well, that's how the father is. No. The father wasn't like that. The father obviously had resources at his house Yeah. And was exacting business in some kind of way that, Resources were gonna be plentiful. I think when I was a young believer, I just I just thought that, like, what God wanted us to do with our resources was just as simple as Distribution. Just getting it out there. instead of recognizing that the the very economy of the ground that god created requires The sowing of a seed, the cultivating of the earth, the watering of the seed, the watching after so that you pick out the weeds and prevent the thorns from emerging, And then actually, tending to it till it bears fruit.
[00:33:21.29] - Jason Carpenter
And then the cycle of going back
[00:33:22.70] - Gregg Garner
And then doing it again. Right. And taking the seeds from that to create more resources.
[00:33:26.40] - Jason Carpenter
Right cause then you have the element of people watching, like, the way that you give your resources. And you give to something, like and then that something fails, and it's supposed to represent God
[00:33:37.00] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:33:37.29] - Jason Carpenter
There's a consequence there. Like, The expectation is we're supposed to be like a city on a hill, a light to the nations. And if we're investing our resources into things that are Are failing? Like, what does that mean? Like, what kind of direction are we offering?
[00:33:51.00] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right. It also yeah. Yeah. I'm totally with you. And I think it also sparked in me like a, When you're saying just it's easier to distribute just like..
[00:34:00.90] - Gregg Garner
because that's what the apostles are doing. Right? They were they are preoccupied with a daily distribution, And they were even discriminating against the Hellenistic widows Yeah. Because, you know, they were Jewish. And so they're like, we don't have the resource for all this. Let's prioritize the Jewish Creating partiality. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.
[00:34:17.59] - Mitchell Buchanan
Well, it just removes like, if you know, just, like, get rid of it or just, like, hey. Just, like, let's disperse it. It removes, I think, your own Healthy, I think, inner disposition with, like, how how to do this or how to wrestle with it. And inviting God in that moment where it's like, Hey. It's not just supposed to be as easy of, like, if I get it, I immediately give it. Right. Now someone else is having to take care of me. It's like Yeah. Finding even your own conviction with the holy spirit of, like, hey. I have this. I'm charged with being generous with it. Now it's like, How do I engage the Lord and to be able to give it to others
[00:34:51.00] - Gregg Garner
This is supposed to , bring, like, appropriate, and I believe accountability to leaders. Here here's here's the the thing I think that would be a mistake if people perceive what we're talking about as merely being an exhortation to individuals To be individual stewards of their individual resources. Mhmm. The reality is that all groups of people like our church are communities, and People are experiencing blessing within the scope of their work or their business, and now there's the kingdom work that they have to do. And but they may not have the time or energy to, sit in that position to administer that other kind of work. So I would never say don't Tribute at all. Remember, the the thing was they laid it at the apostles' feet. The problem was the apostles didn't know how to steward all of that.
[00:35:37.80] - Mitchell Buchanan
Well, would there be a problem in removing ..The what I was saying, if, like, if you immediately give, is there a problem removing I think that You're working out your own faith, like, working out that tension?
[00:35:48.40] - Gregg Garner
No I think that's fantastic. I think you gave great advice. What what I wouldn't want to have happen is that the person all of a sudden then Believes that they must develop a conviction for a ministerial apparatus that, Has a return of investment. And next thing you know, you have a church of two hundred people. You have you have a church of two hundred individual entrepreneurs. Yeah. We're all trying to figure out The same thing. Right? God created us as a body. Instead, we need to recognize that, you know, Ephesians 04:11, and he gave gifts and that there are people who are put in these positions in the body to help administer what it is that the body is producing together. So when the when the pastor at your church is like, hey, guys. Let's give towards this offering that's gonna go towards this thing. Mhmm. Your responsibility is, yes, to give and and to be Part of that, especially as God provides the means and proportion your faith, but also to be the kind of steward to ask the questions and say, hey. What did we do with that?
[00:36:44.50] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:36:44.90] - Gregg Garner
How how how how did we use that? And you find out the leadership is, like, we just gave it freely. We just gave it with whatever. And now Any reasonable person's gonna, so we're gonna have to do this again next year?
[00:36:55.90] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah. Right.
[00:36:56.69] - Gregg Garner
Did you guys know that foundations who give grants or the government wanna give us grants? They rarely give, Grants, like, for an undetermined, in perpetuity. Right? They don't do that. They usually say, We're gonna give you this grant for the next five years.
[00:37:12.59] - Jason Carpenter
Mhmm.
[00:37:12.80] - Gregg Garner
It's gonna be a hundred thousand this year. It's gonna be eighty the next, sixty the next Mhmm. Forty the next, and twenty in the last year Because they expect you to develop capacity to independently operate without the help. Right? That's wise. There's wisdom in that. Yeah. It it makes The people who are implementing the processes develop their capacity in such a way that it becomes a sustainable institution.
[00:37:36.40] - Jason Carpenter
And they're not dependent.
[00:37:37.59] - Gregg Garner
In and of itself, and it's not dependent. And and that's empowerment. Right? And so when your church has a program where you're offering something, those are the questions that I think people who are good with resources and money are afraid to ask in the church. Because we turned it so magical.
[00:37:54.09] - Mitchell Buchanan
Sure.
[00:37:54.30] - Gregg Garner
We're just like, I'm gonna give. I'm letting go. I'm letting God. And it's like, no. Let's figure out what this went towards. Because if if you're like, I gave the this money towards Biblical education. I wanna know how many people were taught. Yeah. Where are they now? What are they saying about it? How is it impacting their communities? Mhmm. And then when you find out, not only are they being taught, But these guys are turning into the next teachers. And this is gonna change our operating expense because as we have American teachers, Because of the cost of living in the United States, it costs x plus a hundred.
[00:38:24.50] - Gregg Garner
When we when these guys are getting trained up as teachers because of your help, We're able to now accommodate that. now we can subtract a hundred because in this country, it's just gonna cost x. Yeah.
[00:38:34.00] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:38:34.19] - Gregg Garner
And now they can operate independent. Do you get what I'm saying?
[00:38:36.50] - Mitchell Buchanan
yeah. And I think from that That activity with a proper mindset, with with, like, a proper approach, like, we should be seeing even questions for How things were spent or I think results from what happened as an extension of of faith filled conversation Yeah. Not as a a Critical, doubtful concern.
[00:38:58.40] - Gregg Garner
Thank you.
[00:38:58.80] - Mitchell Buchanan
Great point. Yeah.
[00:39:00.80] - Gregg Garner
Cause it CAN go the other way.
[00:39:02.09] - Mitchell Buchanan
And it it's about even trusting one another and the approach you have where it's like, Hey. I am, you know, giving my resources, my time, whatever it is. And I wanna make sure that, like, I As I'm approaching that engaging God in my faith that, like, this is returning results, I can examine myself. Am I not giving enough? Am I not giving more? Is the program at fault? But I'm really engaging in those conversation with a position of faith, not just to pick at something that I think may be a problem and then be like, Well, see, I knew
[00:39:32.50] - Gregg Garner
good.
[00:39:32.80] - Jason Carpenter
Then talk about it In your own circles. Like, what are they even doing with that money?
[00:39:35.80] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:39:36.19] - Jason Carpenter
Like, rather than actually talking to people, they could actually help you understand.
[00:39:39.30] - Gregg Garner
And going back to the verse, recognizing that God has given us wisdom, That and that illuminating light that comes from his word is is not irrelevant. It's gonna just like Jesus said, not across the t dot of the I is irrelevant. Heaven and earth can pass way. The word of God's gonna be relevant. So if we can hear the biblical rationale for why we're doing what we're doing, Because that word is a word of faith. And the things that we're called to do for God to please God are gonna be things on the other side of faith. For without faith, it's impossible to please God. So, like, an example to to close out here is we've been visited recently by, Manohar Paul from India. He's he's been with us for several weeks And it's been an incredible blessing to have him. And, On Sunday, we got to hear from him talk, in the church service and then after in a a a meeting. And in that meeting, he Was able to stand on the stage and speak of the way in which God has built him up And highlight Through gratitude that who he's become and who his wife's become has been a result of this community's investment into their lives.
[00:40:53.30] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:40:54.00] - Gregg Garner
And when I looked at the room, there were tears in people's eyes because they were witnessing what God builds.
[00:41:00.50] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:41:01.00] - Gregg Garner
But that was a faith filled procedure. It's hard to gather the appropriate data based upon worldly metrics for what it is that God's building. Mhmm. And it does take time. If if we would have expected that result from him in the first couple of years, we wouldn't have ever got it. I mean, just a few years ago, and he knows this. He he wasn't even responding to emails with respect to bible courses. He wasn't turning in homework or doing anything. This last time, he was just talking about how it moved him. Mhmm. Like, that there was change. He he actually was one of the key voices into helping us Change it around so it would be more effective with an international audience. Yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah. So, like, I I I think that sometimes We can misunderstand what's happening and then jump to our own conclusions and be critical. But what you're saying, I think, is so valuable in this conversation That we need to, by faith, engage in in the kind of question asking and inquiry that has leadership Giving a report. Mhmm. Because I I know that for me, one of my big things in leadership is I feel like I can I never have enough time to give any good reports? There's so many good things to talk about. Mhmm. I don't have time to talk about it. Mhmm. And it always goes better when someone asks a question because There's so much happening. I 'm moving from one thing to the next, and I don't even know what people don't know at that point.
[00:42:24.90] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:42:25.40] - Gregg Garner
And so, Indeed. Getting involved in the kind of faith filled inquiry that helps us to all be accountable To the way in which we're stewarding the wisdom of God, which is gonna ultimately culminate in the generational expansion of his family Yeah. Into the nations. It it that's that's just, like, a really, really powerful, value to have Yeah. As a church community. Yeah. And I really believe we have it, and I'd like to see it more.
[00:42:54.00] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah. And I prayed just from this conversation that this will kind of, Build in our whole church where it's like we aren't afraid of restrictions on, like, hey. We all should have that wisdom of the of God pouring out of us in a way that we build one another up. It's like whether it's asking questions or bringing something to light. I think James should empower all of us. Like, hey. Like, whatever we feel like the, restrictions are, whatever we feel is like holding us back, We can freely ask the lord for wisdom. He can freely give it. Every, like, great and perfect gift is from him, and it's like, let's open up more avenues Two, I think have faithful conversations. To have even James is very plain. Have plain conversations. I don't know if I have enough to meet my needs. Like, I need some wisdom from someone. Like, Extending those out can just bring so much life and opportunities for people to invest into one another and see God, like, God's generosity just pour over us. It's like, This is super exciting. So, thanks. I think this was a a great convo. Glad my sermon, Turned up something here. Thanks for
[00:44:01.80] - Jason Carpenter
Thanks for having us on your podcast, Mitch.
[00:44:05.09] - Mitchell Buchanan
Thanks for listening to the sermon podcast from the church Community for GOD. Wherever you're listening, leave us a five star review and subscribe for future episodes. More than anything, let's keep pushing these conversations in our homes When we gather in hangouts, at work, in text, we want this word to carry with all of us everywhere we go till we get back together again. Thanks, everybody.
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