Grant Dailey and Gregg Garner discuss the sermon series on generosity and the value of giving, focusing on Acts 20 and the idea that it is more blessed to give than to receive. They reflect on their own experiences with giving and the impact it had on their understanding of generosity. The speakers emphasize the need to practice and develop a habit of giving, drawing parallels to learning basketball skills. They discuss the importance of continuing to give even when desired results are not immediately seen and highlight the transformative power of community and interconnectedness. They also encourage listeners to be intentional with traditions and generosity, recognizing the original meaning of Christmas as provision for the vulnerable.
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[00:00:10.00] - Mitchell Buchanan
Hello. Hello. Hello. My name is Mitchell Buchanan. Welcome to the sermon podcast from the church community for God. This is a beautiful time we have to sit down with everyone who spoke from the last month at church, and we are going through our value series on what we value. Right now, we're going Your generosity, and as always, joined by co host Greg Garner, our Bible teacher extraordinaire. And we have a chance this is our opportunity not just to recap The sermons. But we wanna hear the thoughts behind the sermon. We wanna push this conversation beyond Sunday into our everyday lives. Because if the word is not living and alive, we're we're missing an element here. So, again, this is our podcast A series on generosity, and and how we value that as a community.
[00:00:58.60] - Gregg Garner
Grant, go ahead. What verse and give us a little bit in what you're trying communicate.
[00:01:02.50] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. So I was in Acts twenty, and Paul's communication to the, elders of the Ephesian church that in the three years of doing ministry with him, He had given them an example of what it looks like to work in order to support the week, remembering that the the words of our lord Jesus that it is indeed More blessed to give than to receive. And, at first, I looked at kind of the immediate context that this was his farewell address to this community that he had been with for so long, And he's moving on to Jerusalem, and he knows with certainty that he they will never see him again. And so, therefore, he's just incredibly concerned That they would endure and continue in the way that he's led them and model ed for them, that they wouldn't be led astray by people that would come in with the intent to do so. And in that concluding statement the thing that's gonna keep them on track is their generosity and their resolve to work, to support those that cannot do for themselves. I also looked at the broader cotext of chapter nineteen and what his ministry began like in Ephesus, how it started, and the various Points of conflict between the temple of Artemis and all the things that happened there in that community.
[00:02:12.69] - Gregg Garner
So, Grant, we've got We've got some time now to go over your passage, which as you so rightly noted, Everyone knew how to finish the verse Yeah. For it's more blessed to give Yeah. Than receive. And then you you made it a point to highlight that Paul said these were Jesus's words.
[00:02:30.59] - Grant Dailey
Mhmm.
[00:02:31.09] - Gregg Garner
So this is Jesus's statement that Paul wants the community in Ephesus to understand prior to his departure Upon revealing this is the last time he sees them. And, you you gave us some really, like, Compelling points of consideration, but you did take some time to tell us you hated Christmas. And, I think there there is there is some good humor there. But I know that whenever we kind of culturally step on people's toes, There's some people who say ouch so hard, they stop listening, you know, and I know that you did a good job about bringing things back around and and helping people to understand that, you don't want us to be involved in thoughtless cultural practices, but instead, you want the values that come from our God to, intentionally be integrated into our day to day. But, when you highlighted The issue at hand for us modernly during a Christmas season, I was wondering, even in bringing up the conviction that you had based upon Brandon's sermon and then also just sitting there with your kids And giving them More money than you'd ever thought to give them Yeah. To do something like this. It was a great thing to get a window into. I wanted to hear though how it impacted you because you didn't get to really explain that. You could tell it impacted you. But just like as a dad and because you made the choice with your wife. You said, we're gonna do this and, I'm sure the way you talked about it, You put yourself in a position beyond your means maybe than what than what you normally would have given.
[00:04:26.89] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. It's you know, like, I think In in the past because we've tried to make it a practice. I've heard, like, you share about and other people share about the experience of going through the the different causes with kids and talking about it is so wonderful. Even just to expose them to and help them understand, like, why do we need to help feed people or why does a pastor need biblical training? And be like, hey, kids. I went to college for several years and then followed it up with another degree. And, so I enjoyed that side of it. But like in the past, you know, our number was, like, it it felt kid appropriate. You know, like, twenty bucks. Five bucks. Five bucks. Twenty bucks. It was like and, you know, when they get the joy of, like, seeing their name on the page, it's like Rosie Daley or
[00:05:10.39] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:10.80] - Grant Dailey
You know, whatever it is. But I I felt the conviction because, I think it just felt like, Man, I'm not like a big CS Lewis guy. Like, but this this thing that he said stuck with me for a long time because he's talking about the idea of charity. And he made the point to say that as we have to, it it is very individuated, but he tried to say that, like, the kinda giving that Jesus calls to, like, we should feel it. And that's what I think that's what I felt in the so sparingly...
[00:05:42.10] - Gregg Garner
Like, feel like it, like, sting a little kind of feel it? Or you mean, like, emotionally connect it.
[00:05:48.00] - Grant Dailey
I mean that it it should, it it should affect our our decision making as far as what we do with the rest of those resources. Says, you know, because, like, to say to my three kids, you guys have a hundred dollars. I want you to pick which ones and how much you wanna give to it. Think about it. Read through it. Like, that was no small amount of money. Mhmm. And that's not to say that, I'm now in debt and can't pay a school bill, but it is to say, we have to be more mindful about how we're gonna spend money. Uh-huh. You know? Maybe we would have decided to do this thing. But now as a result of trying to enact this kind of generosity, we're gonna have to change our plans a little bit or maybe not do this thing that we were gonna do or do this thing as a family and then I think, like, it it just even though that decision making was there, it was Still such a wonderful experience to talk to my kids about it and go through it and highlight what we're doing and even connect them to people, to students, to things and make them aware of things. And then for them, like, even to experience joy from giving. You you know, because I think, like, even when I told my kids, it was like, you're gonna have a hundred dollars to spend. It felt so big to them because they're like, they never handled that kind of money before in their life. And then it was like they had to enact this choice. And, you know, materially, they did not get any of it. You know, it's not like it hit their bank account, and they just Get back a portion. It was just i t was so wonderful to do with them. And for me, I I really felt even in in the text Today, as overused as it is, that it is more blessed to give than it is to receive. And I did try to highlight that, I I think so often, the example of giving yourself a gift was really funny to me. Yeah. I don't think I'd ever thought about that.
[00:07:42.30] - Gregg Garner
I heard people say that.
[00:07:43.50] - Mitchell Buchanan
I used that within the last week. Yeah. For yourself? Yeah.
[00:07:46.80] - Grant Dailey
That's so Funny, though, you gift yourself. That that's you can't gift yourself. It's like you you bought it for yourself. You know? Here you go, self. I mean, I guess I'd be able to loop twelve.
[00:07:58.69] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:03.39] - Grant Dailey
But, but but It's more blessed to give than receive. We so often make, you know, because it's been like culturally, we make it a simple sell. It's like, I got you this thing, So you get me the same thing or similar thing, and it's like our giving Yeah. Comes to vary. But in that instance, my kids, it was just so So wonderful because They got to experience the benefit of how wonderful it was to give.
[00:08:28.69] - Gregg Garner
So, like, experientially, you felt The benefits of implementing that text. Let me ask you. What do you think Jesus was trying to do there? Because there's several ways to look at The statement. Like, is he trying to reorient our reality? Because I think for most of us, it's more blessed to receive than to give. But to say it's more blessed to give than receive i s kinda like a record scratch. Like, let's think about that again. Did he mean to say it that way? Because it it's I know we've heard it so much. We we just go, yeah. That's it. But I'm pretty sure, like, when you look at kids,
[00:09:05.29] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:09:05.60] - Gregg Garner
They feel more blessed to receive than to give. so I was, like, the only grandkid at the time in in my family. And when you're, like, one of the only grandkids, You get everything. Right? From everybody. All the aunts and uncles, grandparents.
[00:09:23.29] - Mitchell Buchanan
Oh, yeah.
[00:09:23.70] - Gregg Garner
And dude, I got, like, like, all kinds of He Man characters.
[00:09:27.60] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah. Dude.
[00:09:28.39] - Gregg Garner
every action figure he man. I got some Thundercats. I got some GI Joe. There there was some Star Wars. And got them all. Right? Then they were all individually packaged. They're on a Christmas tree, and I was so pumped to open them up. And then I had heard, from and this is a little little window into my life story. But, my my dad one day, I'm fake shaving with my dad, and he's like, what if I told you you have a brother? I'm like, what? He's like, yeah. You've got an older brother. We're gonna move to the Philippines, and you're gonna get to meet him. And I'm like, what? He goes, yeah. He lives in poverty, and he doesn't have anything. And I'm five years old, and I'm just thinking, I wanted to have all my toys. So then, that's what I do. I don't even open them, Get them all put into boxes, get them all shipped to the Philippines. I'm like a little saint. Right? Within within the next, six months, we moved to the Philippines, And I see my brother for the first time. First time I see him, he's showering in the rain. Because out there, they don't have plumbing to Right. To, you know, have tapped in water. So you get a shower when it starts raining. He's out there. He's showering. He's, like, mountain rich, super skinny. And, I I'm like, that's my brother. So I finally get to meet him, and he shows me the room where he sleeps on the floor, like a dirt floor in there, and then there's all the toys. And I'm like, those are my toys. And I just turned into this greedy little turd base who's like, Hey. Give me these toys.
[00:11:00.39] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:11:03.50] - Gregg Garner
It disappeared, man. It is more blessed to receive because he seemed very blessed That he got those things, and I no longer felt blessed having given away. My point is I don't think that this is a childish based thinking, like, rudimentary concept. I think For us, naturally, we believe it's more blessed to receive than to give. So is Jesus Giving us a way to reorient our minds, is this such a revelatory communication that Paul apostle is, like, having to say, I I need to stamp on this, the authority of Jesus. Because we know there's no other, passage of Jesus saying this. It's not synoptics. There's no source in the gospels for this Outside of Luke being his volume two gospel. Right? So it's like Paul feels it's so weighty Mhmm. This this new concept he's trying to teach That he's got to cite Jesus the Christ. So to me, it's like, what do you think is happening there?
[00:12:04.60] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. Jesus he's certainly not observing the way things are As if we've missed that our whole lives. Like, oh, yeah. It really is More blessed Because, like, you're highlighting, it's like, it's not at all. It's not. And even whatever joy my kids would have experienced Or they did experience like you're saying, they probably would have felt it more had they known that hundred was actually attached to them. You know, like, I'm sure their mind could have come up with a lot better scenarios of what to do with that.
[00:12:30.89] - Gregg Garner
But you're tutoring them. You're teaching them their kids. Right? Like, I'm sure when they're older, It I mean, you even as you were talking, I was getting ideas. I'm not gonna pull out cash. I'm gonna put it in my older kids' actual hands, and I'll be like, look. You can use this wherever you want or we got These things up here, what do you wanna do with it? Yeah. See what happens. Yes. But then, you know, when they don't spend it all, they keep it for themselves. They'll just, like, there's your reward.
[00:12:51.89] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. That's right.
[00:12:52.89] - Gregg Garner
That's it right there. You get nothing else. Nothing in heaven. Just that fifty oh, no. Anyways Yeah. No. I'm with you on that.
[00:12:59.70] - Grant Dailey
And I think He's trying to reframe he's trying to reframe The way we think about things. Like, I think there's so much effort in the Bible in getting us to evaluate how we think about it and giving us, Like, a new world view, a new outlook on life that we couldn't have arrived at on our own.
[00:13:18.20] - Gregg Garner
So we have to mature into this concept that it's more blessed to give than receive.
[00:13:21.70] - Grant Dailey
Definitely.
[00:13:22.29] - Gregg Garner
So how how do we mature into anything except through practice Right. And the repetition of it. Right? You know what I mean? Yep. Like, there there was a few years ago where, I was watching our Phoenix basketball team play, and I was a basketball player. And it was so hard to watch them. These kids could not make any shots. I'm not kidding. It was torturous. Anybody who remembers this time as our first year of basketball, It it was just painful to watch. And, I I would talk to some of the players, and I'd be like, you guys can't shoot. What's going on? They're like, well, we don't shoot in practice. We just We just run plays. In fact, we're not allowed to shoot. And I'm like, what's going on? And I don't know the coaching philosophy at the time, but I definitely went In the the scope of my authority as a head of school, I went to the athletic director and I said, get these kids shooting practice. Like, get them shooting. we can't handle this. But I think that sometimes when it comes to concepts, like biblical concepts, We think that it's more blessed to get their seed oriented. I'm gonna shoot this more blessed to give than receive three here, and it's just gonna sink every time. But I'm saying, like, until you practice giving instead of receiving, like, your first few gives, like, I just told you the vulnerable story of my big given. You guys couldn't laugh at it. Like, it's so humiliating. Right? It's like, whoosh, walk away. I'm like, Three in, ice in my veins, five year old. Right? And then, like, after that, my generosity is it's just I'm banking it. I'm air balling at that point. So it's like you you it's something you have to practice to reorient, like, your habits and the way in which You typically approach life. And I think that when when you're in the developing stages of things, like, when I when I went to college basketball, I I didn't know what hand I was. I shot with both hands. And my my coach was like, what hand are you? And I'm like, I don't know. So there's Test to check whether you're right or left hand, they push you. Whatever you fall back on, that's like your your your dominant stance, and it tells which hand you are. Yeah. But every time he pushed me, I She was a different leg. He's like, you need to pick a hand. And I was like, alright. And he's like, just be right handed. So what he made me do, which was humiliating compared to all of my other Teammates was that I had to come before practice and shoot five hundred shots under the rim, repeating the same motion. And then I had to lay after practice On the bleachers and just keep doing the same motion five hundred times. Do you guys know what doing something five hundred times does to your arm thousand times on the night? And I was like, score. I'm like, missing other shots. I'm like, I have no strength. He's all, you're getting your motion down. You're getting your motion down. By the end of the season, my shot percentage tripled. Like, it was amazing progress. But there there was the growth effort, the The sense of humiliation and failure of just doing the the the practical things to get to the place where I had a good shot. So I know for me in my early years of generosity, like, that that that took on all kinds of things. It could be like someone going, like, Brandon could've told me, man, I like that jacket. Next thing you know, I'm, like, going, do I have another jacket? Do I have extra jackets? I'd be like, I do. I give them my jacket. To you. And he'd be like, no. No. No. I'm like, well, you have a jacket wherever he's like, no. But I like no. I'll get my own. No. Take mine. Yeah. Like, very practical things like that. I I found myself Doing it with time. Like, I'm I'm really excited to use my time here to go read this book. And then someone's like, hey. We should get together. And I'm like, let's go right now.
[00:16:54.20] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:16:54.89] - Gregg Garner
Like, I I'm just, you know, I'm shooting for the bleachers. I'm shooting under the basket. I'm trying to get my generosity in control. I wonder if Our our our people recognize that just because you heard Jesus say it doesn't mean you know how to shoot the three. Like, you're you're you might have to start under the basket. You know you have to start very small and figure out, like, even what your currency is. What are the means by which you give. Because if it is a revelatory statement, none just like our our kids when they first started playing basketball, we went from soccer players to basketball players. These kids did not know how to use their hands. Yeah. They knew how to use their feet. Right? And I think in the same way, we don't know how to, analog We don't know how to use our hands because it's revelatory. This is a revelatory expectation being more blessed to give than receive. So we have to reorient around this, and it happens through practice. And it and it happens, like, you have to take a risk. Like, you have to keep like, Mitchell, you you coach. Right?
[00:17:55.70] - Grant Dailey
Mhmm.
[00:17:56.00] - Gregg Garner
And so I know your your girls, they're not shooting perimeter threes. Right? Nobody. Right. So what are they shooting? Ten footers?
[00:18:04.59] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:05.40] - Gregg Garner
Okay. So if they keep missing their eight footer, what are you gonna tell them? What's your advice to them?
[00:18:12.29] - Mitchell Buchanan
Shoot. We gotta find a way to shoot closer.
[00:18:14.40] - Gregg Garner
Okay. So you want them to shoot closer. Let's say let's say they're within four feet. This is as close as they could get with getting an arc in there, and they keep missing. What's your advice to them?
[00:18:24.90] - Mitchell Buchanan
I mean, Depending on how they're shooting, like, we have to use the backboard. We have to look at what they're doing. Look at what they're doing.
[00:18:30.59] - Gregg Garner
So you're gonna give them instruction. Right. I think, generally, Most of us are gonna tell that player, keep shooting.
[00:18:35.90] - Mitchell Buchanan
Oh, well, yeah.
[00:18:36.59] - Gregg Garner
And we'll say it's gonna fall.
[00:18:38.29] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:18:38.70] - Gregg Garner
So what are we trying to tell a player when we tell them keep shooting?
[00:18:43.20] - Mitchell Buchanan
I mean, that the the results of the current action aren't the there aren't real results from every time you do
[00:18:50.20] - Gregg Garner
that. And so I think sometimes When people engage in generosity, they they don't have the long term development considerations in mind. And so they give, and then they find themselves in a hard situation where
[00:19:04.00] - Grant Dailey
Mhmm.
[00:19:04.20] - Gregg Garner
They're they're having to, like, budget or squeeze themselves. And they're like, that's not how it was supposed to be. Mhmm. But, like, you you don't you don't know, like, you talked about motivation As being the key consideration, which I think is a great thing to think about. Like, how do we even know our motivations when we give it first?
[00:19:22.29] - Grant Dailey
That's true.
[00:19:24.00] - Gregg Garner
it's hard to remember back when I was five years old as to what my actual motivations were. I think I I've had genuine sense of compassion For the consideration, but I think my motives were revealed when I wanted to take the toys back. Right. You know, they're they're at least they were immature. Yeah. And so sometimes when we find ourselves compelled like, right now, it's the holiday season. The the letter you wrote for or you read from Rebecca, Super touching. You totally had us too. You presented it perfectly. How we could have thought it was any eleventh grade student in the audience. Then all of a sudden you're like, no. It's our remote learner From Uganda who grew up in poverty and is now now Re thinking about a story that she thought was neat and special growing up and and now understands That the experience that even she had or the other kid she knows has is not the experience God wants any kids to have. And so he's even Shining an illuminating light On his own son's situation so that we now see all his kids' situation. That's a compelling thing That makes a person wanna give. So that that's that you're compelled to shoot that three. It may not you may not get the results That you want, but that doesn't mean you stop shooting. And in time as generosity, because it goes back to this this like, do we really believe that if you if you sow an abundance and you're gonna reap an abundance Versus sowing sparingly and reap music. If we do believe that, what happens when it doesn't work? And I'm I'm trying to say Yeah. There there's there's so much that God's looking at in us, And and we just have to keep shooting. We have to keep being generous.
[00:21:00.09] - Mitchell Buchanan
Mhmm.
[00:21:00.79] - Grant Dailey
Well, it's interesting because Paul puts himself forward as the example. Yeah. He does. Modeling this. But I do think it's interesting if you were to look at how his life model generosity this is the guy who has been, like, imprisoned everywhere he goes and beat up every time. And he's about to set sail to Jerusalem, have the same thing happen. And if I'm looking at him as an example for how I wanna model my life, I don't know if I'm gonna be so inclined unless I get something revelatory in me that starts to to work on me. Like, he certainly doesn't model the result of, like, reaping in abundance Yeah. In a conventional sense.
[00:21:38.79] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:21:39.09] - Grant Dailey
But I do think, like, the The exemplary aspect of it is interesting to me because maybe that's the thing that kinda also helps, bridge a gap for us between the result we want but we're not yet getting is when we look at the example of people who have been generous And they have that testimony to say, man, 'm so blessed to be generous in this way.
[00:22:02.40] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:22:02.59] - Grant Dailey
And they can model that and speak to that. Like, even Even as you were sharing, I was reminded you I remember hearing a story, like, years ago. This may have been, when I was probably still a youth pastor with Slam, And you shared a story about giving some kid an electric guitar
[00:22:18.40] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:22:18.79] - Grant Dailey
Just at a slam show. yeah. And I felt that as a guitarist because I've I've Thought about that in moments. I have come very close. Actually, you know, I don't have many of these things. Not near as many of them I like, These electric guitars and I actually there was one year where, we're trying to get together instruments for, our cooperatives in Africa to be able to do it, and I like, refinished one of my guitars and included it. But I felt it. I was like, yeah. I'm I'm down one now. Like, this is I don't have the options. The example becomes very important To have a model to look at and say, okay. I'm not there yet, but I see this. And I know this person. I trust this person. I love this person.
[00:23:01.00] - Gregg Garner
That's really good, what you're saying. I think, a difficult consideration that people may have as they think through Paul as an example, And even you intimated it is that if I follow this example, will I suffer the same consequences? And I think that could be incredibly defeating, But I don't think that's the case. I don't think that you inherently will suffer what it is that someone breaking in a new reality Suffers. Yeah. So take for example, like, I think as Americans, we'll go to, like, the civil rights movement. And we think about the freedom riders or, the the the sit in community with Martin Luther King Junior and Rosa Parks, like, these guys had to go through it Just to end the segregation that existed in these public places. But today, it's all different.
[00:23:55.00] - Grant Dailey
Mhmm.
[00:23:55.40] - Gregg Garner
A a new reality Has been ushered into the the US community at large so that we, have disdain for segregation. And, it's not it's no longer part of the tapestry of our culture. And I think in the same way when we're breaking in the kingdom of God, Those those initial examples, they they suffer Mhmm. The violence is the way Jesus would put it Yeah. By breaking forth That new reality because it's it's, outside the scope of people's understanding because it is revelatory. But I do believe that after those things break down, Like like, what you're doing with your kids right now, sowing that into their lives is is going to produce in them The the kind of mindset they're gonna be shooting, you know, for their whole life. It's like the kid that you meet who has been playing basketball since they were three, And we've met those kids. Yeah. And those kids are phenoms. Right? But that's gonna be your kids when it comes to generosity because you're already doing the hard work of saying, Here, put your hand on the seams. Stand in this position. Choose a hand. This is your supporting hand. Don't use it at all except to help to get the ball there. Like, you're teaching them the The process and the dynamics of generosity so that when they hear it's more blessed to give than receive, they can later learn that was revelatory. But for them, it'd be kind of mustard seed, you know, that it was indigenous normative to their their upbringing. And I think, For Paul the apostle, what he was doing was so hard because it was it was so new and so different. And he and in the same way, the freedom riders and Martin Luther King Junior had to experience the hostility and the violence of breaking in. What was righteous and good, yet not accepted happens still today in its its various formats. And, I so I think I I wanted to say that because it it can be, rather defeating if you think, excelling in generosity culminates And becoming an enemy of the state.
[00:26:02.00] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:02.79] - Gregg Garner
Like, that could feel pretty bad. Now we hear Jesus saying That if it does happen, remember it happened to me first. Right. Or that if if it if it happened to you if it happens to me and I suffer in that way, there's gonna be an element of that For you guys, but it's also important to remember that he was often talking to the community of them, not to the individuals. Sometimes we think Jesus was, like, talking to all of them at the same time as individuals. he was talking to them as a community, and I think that, another, teaching of the New Testament is that when one suffers, we all suffer. So there's supposed to be this interconnectedness, which, gosh, I would love some more time to talk about that concept of what happens when one suffers and everybody should be suffering together as a result. But, it and, you know, and then the inverse when someone rejoices, we can all rejoice together.
[00:26:49.90] - Mitchell Buchanan
That's right.
[00:26:50.50] - Gregg Garner
But, I think a community Can experience the transformative power of God so that, there the the the measure by which you sow Actually finds its way back into your life because even even objective systems be get created To ensure that kind of thing happens for people. And I think sometimes we don't even know to think about that because we don't believe ourselves To be the conduits by which God works to do these kinds of things, which I I would like to get to when we talk to you You've got every good and perfect gift. But, like, if you don't if you think that God is acting independent of his people, then which most people do all the time for everything, They're gonna be like, I'm sowing. Let's see what God does. Rather than leadership and other people recognizing, hey. Look at the generosity of all these people over here. It's putting them in a position, like, God says that there there should be some reaping as a result of the way in which they're sowing, and we value this, and we consider this appropriate and healthy. Like, we need to change that. And I know for me as a leader, we've had so much ministry. We do so much ministry, and Almost all of it began with volunteers. Yeah. But there comes a point where we have to recognize that it is not only unsustainable to have Perennial volunteers, you know, where where they're just gonna be that in perpetuity. Right? Volunteers. But that we have to create the capacity and the surrounding system To ensure that those volunteers now reap what they've sown. Mhmm. And that that that I think is something our community Probably hasn't thought too much about, and I think they need to. I know as a leader, I need our community too because these are part of my initiatives as a leader to make sure that this is happening. Otherwise, I'm gonna get combativeness when people are like, well, I don't know why we can't just emphasize volunteers and always have volunteers. And it's like, yeah. We need volunteers, especially when we need them. Mhmm. But can we partner with God To be the conduit for the kind of blessing that he says should come as a result of us sowing. So if we have someone faithfully sowing volunteerism in, I don't know, the preschool for, like, five years, Shouldn't they, at some point, come into the position where all of what they've sowed, they've reaped In the world? I mean, that is a farming analogy.
[00:29:17.09] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:29:17.40] - Gregg Garner
Right? That that that that is the the economy that God's most directly connected to. And what you sow is what you reap Mhmm. For the most part. Right? Jesus tells parables like the birds of the air can come and take the seed, that thorns could choke out things, and rocks prevent depth so that things get scorched out. He has There there are exceptions to the how, we we reap, but I'm saying if we are to be God's kids who are conduits for how we reap, and we need to start thinking about that. So I think Paul didn't have anybody around him thinking about this, Which is why he's like, I had to work day and night. Mhmm. And I didn't have to take anything. But that it and it's really Corinthians where you get his conversations on all stations on all this, basically stating it shouldn't be like this, and things should be different. And I I just wouldn't want anybody to get the mentality That, you know, we're we're gonna just keep sowing and whether God chooses or not to do something about it, and then They feel like God's never doing anything about it, and then they go, wow, man. God doesn't love me or God doesn't care. God doesn't see. And instead, I think we need to recognize as the body of Christ, Literally what we're called, which means we are enacting as hands and feet, the mind of Christ. We have to develop systems that take into consideration how people So and, the world around us isn't gonna do that. They're gonna have their own considerations. Did that make any sense?
[00:30:44.40] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. I did. I think you can also get the a weird inverse where it's like a person could put effort into something that they could sow, and then they reap something. Like, I thought I was supposed to suffer.
[00:30:54.59] - Gregg Garner
That happens for sure. Thats happened In our community.
[00:30:57.79] - Grant Dailey
Because because perhaps inappropriately, we look at a person like Paul who is exceptional in his role, You know, like, in what he's trying to usher into the world. And, yeah, like you like you highlight, he doesn't have people doing that, but he is doing that for these communities, and he's leaving them rules and Procedures and expectations for them to follow in his absence. But, yeah, we look at them. We go, that's how it is. And then something happens. It's like we have our needs met Well, this is weird. Why aren't we suffering?
[00:31:27.09] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:31:27.59] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. Why do I have what I need?
[00:31:30.40] - Gregg Garner
and this is my concern because It's not healthy. No.
[00:31:33.50] - Grant Dailey
No. Yeah.
[00:31:34.79] - Gregg Garner
It's not healthy. We, like, we should be rejoicing.
[00:31:38.79] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:39.50] - Gregg Garner
Because we're moving closer towards that Deuteronomy fifteen four initiative that there shall be no poor among you. Mhmm. And the closer we get to fulfilling those kinds of things, we get to be a light to watching communities, and we get to say it's because God's near us because we have his word. We're implementing his word. But if we're not all conscious of the need for us to be those conduits, for God to improve the apparatus that he would use to ensure that sowing is is reaping. And if you sow an abundance, you reap an abundance. We won't even know how to count. We we wanna and and it goes in so many ways. Like like, why could they trust Paul? Part of his argument that you highlighted today was that They would look at his life and legitimately evaluate how did he get his income. Yeah. How was he able to travel the way that he was? Mhmm. How How did he come into the network connections that he has? Like, they they have all these, like, questions That he is answering directly so that he can get them to the point where they just start shooting threes. Because he wants them to practice, and he wants to get himself out of the way. But that is not a sustainable way to even lead people. Like, at a certain point, people change, and now everybody can play basketball. And now it's time to become a really great team, or everybody can shoot, and now it's time to be a really great team. And I think that, sometimes when we read the Bible, Because we're not thinking about, the community development aspect of God's goal for the body of Christ. We limit it to the individual and whether or not they're getting a concept down and then having some personal conviction about it, Which then leads to the inverse you're talking about where a person's like, well, suffering is where this needs to go. Mhmm. But, I do think people grow bitter and Tired, and it's painful.
[00:33:34.09] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:33:38.59] - Gregg Garner
So last thing here, Mitch. And I don't know if you wanna jump in with a question, bro, for for Grant because I think you wrote some things down.
[00:33:47.20] - Mitchell Buchanan
No. No. I've I have some stuff written down. It's totally fine. Alright? I think we we hit on actually a couple of the things I was gonna just to bring up, but Something that I always wanna talk about was in being generous with, in in approaching generosity and especially from, like, Grant's sermon where we talked about, I think, cultural expectations of, like, what we're trying to hit. Culture expectations on us where it's like, hey. Whether it's Christmas or other culture expectations people have on us on how they anticipate us to be generous. Obviously, we wanna see that different as a body of believers. We don't wanna just mimic, oh, this is what my parents expect. This is what my family expects. So that's how I'm gonna, like, Spit it out on the other end. I think an example you brought up is sitting down with your kids and doing that intentionally. I think as a community, I think are we being intentional enough to actually Is it more powerful, and and is it our responsibility to create new traditions or to speak life and bring meaning into the traditions I already maintain? So insofar as I'm going to Knoxville for Christmas, is it what what is what is our responsibility what is our responsibility To push forward and say, hey. We wanna do something new here because, like, God's word informs us that we don't celebrate presents like gifts from one another, Or do we take those opportunities to reevaluate and tell a story of, like, hey. We're giving gifts. Here's how God's word informs that, and here's how this can be a life giving situation that we're in. Does that make sense?
[00:35:29.59] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. I think, I often joke that with my personality, I'm really good at seeing Problems and things and often bad at coming up with viable solutions to my own problems. Maybe that's just part of my own psychosis. Because even in thinking through, like, holiday traditions, you know, like, none of us wanna be jerks. even I don't wanna be a jerk.
[00:35:55.90] - Mitchell Buchanan
As much as you wanna interpret me, I don't wanna be a jerk.
[00:35:58.80] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My stage presence was intended to be hyperbole too.
[00:36:03.80] - Gregg Garner
I think you did well
[00:36:05.90] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. But but I think, like, we have to be intentional with the traditions that we're creating. Right? Like, we, you know, the the things that we do with our kids are likely gonna be the things that they wanna do with their kids, which is why we do things at Christmas. Right? There's, like, the nostalgia attached to it.
[00:36:20.69] - Mitchell Buchanan
Which is natural.
[00:36:23.09] - Grant Dailey
its a normal Human thing. Yeah. But but do I want my kids to do something just because it's nostalgic and all the sensory things are attached to it, or do I want my kids to do it out of the conviction that they wanna please God and be obedient to his word. That's where, for me, it comes in. So then, yeah, we can I think, like, communally, we try to Build traditions together? Right? I'm really thankful for, like, the the practice of our annual campaigns. I think it's a great way to all Kinda come together around something and say, like, this matters. We're not only gonna give to it, but also, like, invite other people to give to it and promote it. Something it's like, it's a great thing. It's a different tradition. I think, like, there are things that we're building as a community, and there are things that we're doing in our individual households. And I think that, like, you know, there's so much room for that.
[00:37:15.59] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:37:15.90] - Grant Dailey
You know? For people to do things individually so long as they're maintaining, like, that commitment and conviction that we get from the words of Jesus to do that intentionally. And so, Yeah. Like, if you wanna put up a a a tree and ornament it, like like, find some way to to then reorient that in a way, which Which I think even, like, if you were to study the various Christmas traditions that we have, they actually did have, like, like, some element in faith and intent At some point centuries ago, that now has been wrapped up in what we would just say largely an American Christmas celebration that we perhaps have missed. But, like, you know, like, maybe there's something to be rediscovered there, or maybe there's just something to do intentionally with your family in that way and ensuring that that's a priority.
[00:38:08.19] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And one of the things that our church that I think is important to be clear about We would never tell anyone what they should do for sure along these lines. Right? When it comes to certain standards of being in Christ, of course, there's some things to help people do. But when it comes to tradition, which is an expression of culture, there are aspects of culture that are neither good nor bad, but are merely neutral.
[00:38:31.50] - Mitchell Buchanan
Right.
[00:38:32.00] - Gregg Garner
And so, I think that there's gonna be a diversity of responses, none of which should even come under a banner as better than the other. Yeah. But at the same time, doing the process that you're talking about seems to be the necessity. Yeah. Like, you really have to because if you're just gonna alleviate yourself Of feeling like you have to think through it all because Grant gave us permission to buy trees and decorate them. Like, you're you're missing the point.
[00:38:58.30] - Gregg Garner
Right? Like, the everybody's gonna have a different context for how this happens in their families because, I mean, how much of Pauline Conversation revolves around there are some people who aren't gonna be able to handle your freedom.
[00:39:12.09] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:39:12.40] - Gregg Garner
So you're gonna have to accommodate The way in which they understand freedom, which typically the opposite of freedom is some form of restriction. Yeah. So there's gonna be A way in which they value through their practice that you're going to look at and determine is a good bad or is it neutral? So if My extended family members want to promote materialism to the degree I find it bad. I'm gonna have to address that. Right. But if what they're doing is the annual, we cook, five pies together that represent, the five generations of grandmother's reps recipes. And And then we, we have stockings for everybody's names and we put goodies in them because that's what, great grandma did or whatever. That's that family, and the kids need to learn something about it and and have some understanding as to why it's connected and why it means something. to even understand that this has nothing to do with your faith in Christ. this is a tradition of our family. Yep. And there there there's a There's a sense of tradition from our ancestry that we're upholding that's that's of the flesh, like, literally of the flesh in that way And not a spirit. Like, you create reasonable people. and my concern is always because we're religious people That we create religious weirdos.
[00:40:31.59] - Grant Dailey
right.
[00:40:31.90] - Gregg Garner
And that religious weirdos are typically so zealous about their typically misunderstanding of the fundamentals of their faith That they end up taking, these positions that are so extreme. They they can't, bear with Other people who have a different way of handling things. Like, when with my with my in laws, when they first started, when we first started having Christmases together, one of my first gifts was a three hundred dollar shirt from Rodeo Drive. It was a silk shirt. And at the time, I was just like, I can't wear this. Like, thinking in my head, I'm trying to figure out how to sell it. And and at that time, there's no no, like, Bay or anything like that. Like, what what what I'm gonna do? Go to the corner and of the freeway and sell it like a homeless guy? Like Yes. I didn't know what to do with it, but it it played me. I ended up giving it away to a poor guy in in Africa. And then let it be his nicest shirt. I it was like a heaping coal on me, But they didn't mean anything bad by it. You know? Right. They meant to bless me, to take care of me, to love me, to integrate me into the family. My lack of maturity at the time had me conflicted because of my religious values, and I didn't know how to appreciate that. And I didn't have anybody around me helping me to understand that because I became like this anomaly of religious conviction connected to my youth. And it's like, no. No. No. We can teach. We can share. We can help young people understand. Right. Because, Even even even people, like, change. My in laws have changed. They just sent us their Christmas presents, came in the mail. It's a bunch of gift cards. And they they did, they put arrows with the name. And at the end, there's a note from Mimi and Pops, and it says, because normally, they would get the girls, gift cards to Target, but they said we can no longer support getting you gift cards from Target because of their woke agenda. So Instead, we have it close to you Visa gift cards that you can use anywhere based upon your own convictions with a smiley face. Love me, boss, which I thought was fantastic Right? Because it respects their convictions. And, like, for me, I don't have any problem buying anything from Target. Maybe I should. Right now, I don't. Yeah. But, it's like they do. That's okay.
[00:42:44.40] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:42:44.59] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. But, like, for even to see them have changed And grown to say, but you may not have that conviction. So we're holding our conviction. You guys operate according to your convictions. Like, convictions manifest in cultural settings and the way in which people feel. But there's also pragmatic considerations to the American Christmas experience because There there is an expenditure there. Like, it's one thing for me to be, like, Dostoevsky and And have pine trees in my backyard that I'm gonna go chop down and and bring to my little Russian house and Use most of it of the bottom branches of it for the firewood that's gonna fuel and just use the top end of it, which is what they would use Yeah. To actually Decorate an ornament because I understand some Russian Orthodox Christian history connected to, Saint Nicholas. You know, I don't know. I have made all of that up. But it's like, like, the the That was It's kinda me. Some of it is some of it is real, some of it's not. But my point is, for us today, there's, like, a lot that you have to do to set up this Christmas environment. Yeah. I mean, some people's electric bills are going right? They're buying all these lights. They set out a whole day.
[00:44:02.19] - Grant Dailey
Right.
[00:44:02.30] - Gregg Garner
I mean, I always just think of a The Christmas vacation. Right? Just all that kind of stuff. And I would never hate anybody if they did that. I'm not mad at them, but that's their that's their own personal conviction. My personal conviction according to how I understand scripture prevents me from, like, spending in that way. Mhmm. But again, at the same time, it's it's a cultural expression Yep. That I find rather neutral. And if someone else wants to do that, just don't do it at the expense of your obligations. Like, if you're in our community and you're you're doing all of that, but you can't pay your bills, come on, bro. Yeah. let's let's rethink the wisdom of this effort. But if this is, like so me and my dad always did this as a kid, and he did this with his dad, and I wanna do that with my son. Who am I to tell you to stop doing that? Right. Do whatever you wanna do. Within
[00:44:49.90] - Mitchell Buchanan
Within the con like, the easiest thing to do is just to kind of let let loose, and then you're just Mimicking the cultural expectations Yeah. Where even if you're following down those cultural expectations or traditions, doing so with a mindfulness And an intentionality where it's like, hey. This is why we're doing it, or this is the experience I had Right. That I wanna impart to you. It's like everything that The thoughtfulness and intentionality allows Jesus to be present in that. Yeah. The thoughtlessness in his rote, processing of cultural expectations Yeah. Actually removes that, like, moment that Jesus can be present in that because you're alive and you're you're, you know, interpreting the symbol for what it could be, not just Fulfilling what happened in the past that you're doing over and over and over. Mhmm. So, yeah
[00:45:37.00] - Gregg Garner
And my in laws ended that little card and said, and remember that Jesus is the reason for the Right. Right? So the our if our faith has Jesus Mhmm. As the reason for season. And as you rightly noted today that, the people that come to witness The sign that was given to them to find that babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, and they were shepherds. And then we know from the Matthew account, There's even gifts that are brought by the scholars of the day. We all know that the way Christmas started, if it's connected to Jesus, Is that gifts were given to the vulnerable child.
[00:46:08.80] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. Mhmm.
[00:46:09.80] - Gregg Garner
Right? We know that it's flipped. Now we're giving gifts to each other. I mean, it's like excuses sometimes to to spend for culture, and I have no no problem with that. Like, I I got my for it came it was supposed to be for last year, but it didn't come in time. We had to order it. But I ended up getting my wife a car For and I told her, this is your birthday. This is your Christmas. This is your next Christmas. Like, kind of a thing. But it's just an excuse At that point, like, I didn't I didn't put a bow. It didn't come on the twenty fifth. Like, I I'm it's just incorporated. And maybe someone else would be like, gosh. That's so thoughtless. Why did you do that? But to me, that felt great, and I think she feels great about it too. Yeah. Like, it's just what we put it on there because we get that that's not what Christmas is, but that's our conviction. Like, Christmas, if we go all the way back to the first one at the advent of the Christ is about if we're talking about gifts, making appropriate efforts to ensure that the vulnerable have what it is that they need. And when we look at the frankincense myrrh and the gold, We see very practical ways in which provision is made for a very vulnerable child. And, I I I do think that The more we learn that and if we get, it's more blessed to give than receive. Christmas does take on a a less cultural, Like, phenomenon and becomes more of a spiritual and and, it it ushers in that kingdom That, Jesus came to be lord over. So at the same time, I'm I I get that we're we're highlighting the diversity of cultural expression, But we should all be moving towards and maturing towards, ushering in that kingdom that whose advent came with a child Who who received the gifts. Yeah. And now that child grew up and said it's more blessed to give than to receive.
[00:48:07.19] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:48:07.59] - Gregg Garner
So we all start With the meeting and then we get to the place of maturing so we give. Guys, thank you so much. Yeah. Appreciate your time. Appreciate it. And, this This this was a a lot we talked about a lot of things, especially on your side, Brandon. But you set us up, dude.
[00:48:24.80] - Mitchell Buchanan
They covered three and a half chapters
[00:48:29.09] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So it it was great. Any closing remarks, fellas?
[00:48:33.19] - Grant Dailey
Amen.
[00:48:35.00] - Gregg Garner
Alright. I appreciate it. Alright. Yeah.
[00:48:36.80] - Mitchell Buchanan
Thank you for listening to the sermon podcast from the church community for God. Wherever you're listening, Leave a five star review. Leave a comment. We love the support. Subscribe for future episodes. Subscribe. More than anything, keep having these conversations with friends In your workplace, wherever you're at. Yeah. We wanna make sure the word carries out from church, indoor every day until we come back together again. So thank you all so much.
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