The speakers discuss the complexities of helping others in different geographic regions, particularly in light of current events in Palestine. They debate the obligation to help Jews in Israel and whether this extends to all Christians or just those in Christ. The concept of unity within the body of Christ is explored, as well as the importance of personal connections and proximity in acts of generosity. The speakers also discuss the idea of prioritizing care for one's own community before helping strangers and the misconception of the universality of the body of Christ.
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[00:00:10.00] - Mitchel Buchanan
Hello. Hello. Hello. My name is Mitchell Buchanan. Welcome to the sermon podcast from the church community for God. This is a beautiful time we have to sit down with everyone who spoke from the last month at church, and we are going through our value series on what we value. Right now, we're going through generosity. And as always, joined by co host Greg Garner, our bible teacher Extraordinaire. And we have a chance this is our opportunity not just to recap the sermons, but we wanna hear the thoughts Kind of sermon, we wanna push this conversation beyond Sunday into our everyday lives. Because if the word is not living Alive. We're we're missing an element here. So, again, this is our podcast series on generosity, and and how we value that as Community. So, Greg, if you wanna intro our first couple speakers.
[00:01:01.10] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So we're we have here professor Brandon Galford and also Grant Daley, Who is our bible teacher at the academy, teaches the high schoolers. But, we're gonna have you guys just summarize, you know, tell us the verse that you Mhmm. Preached on, and then Give us a little preview into what you were trying to get across.
[00:01:27.50] - Brandon Galford
Okay. Excellent. So, I looked at, second Corinthians nine verses eight through ten, And also tried to bring in the surrounding context because chapters eight and nine is it's really, it's one section. And I felt that, you know, there was a need to consider that whole scenario. The main the main points I wanted to get across was, first of all, I wanted to highlight Just how much effort Paul went through to make sure that this this collection for Jerusalem was both gathered and delivered, and the challenges that he faced in trying to make that happen. I think they're they're prominent in the text, and I think it's it's important to to kinda see that. So then I looked at at Paul's theology of generosity and and The motivations for generosity, what Paul puts forward as being what what should motivate us. And then also, God's response on the other end of it That he does as as Paul says, he'll bless us with every blessing in abundance. But then how that blessing in abundance is then for More generosity, which is cool the way Paul words it. That that that the purpose on the other end of it is not just to enjoy it for myself, but The seed we are given is for sowing, and I think Paul emphasizes that. And I looked a little bit at at the role of these liaisons, Who function, like Paul and his crew, as well as our our organization, who function between, those of means, Those who have some wealth and then those who are without, those who are in need. And and just that that Transfer of of those goods, to those who who have need. And then and then lastly, I looked at, The unity that, I believe is a very big deal to Paul, especially the Jew Gentile dynamic. But that unity, that such giving communicates, that it does demonstrate the universality of this body of Christ, and and that that God has has done something something wonderful. It's the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, and it's really exciting to be able to be a part of that. So those are kind of the main points I I try.
[00:03:43.09] - Gregg Garner
That's gonna be fun to discuss. I'm especially interested in this universality. Yeah. Thing that you're bringing up and wondering what that looks like. My my first question for you is, you know, in terms of Time. Mhmm. Because he even commented today. You took your time to set things up. But I wondered why you spent so little time on the verse.
[00:04:06.90] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. I think because I had put so much time on the front end, I I didn't I didn't have I didn't leave myself enough time.
[00:04:14.59] - Gregg Garner
It was, like, giving me flashbacks grading your papers when you're in college. Do you remember what my number one comment would be to you?
[00:04:20.69] - Brandon Galford
My introductions were massive. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:23.19] - Gregg Garner
I'm like, Oh, boy.
[00:04:24.60] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:26.10] - Gregg Garner
would love to hear more on the verse, like, on the point, but, I'm also curious about, like, that That universality comment there.
[00:04:32.80] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the universality part, it get it gets tricky. Obviously, we Obviously, we can't be responsible for the whole world. That's that's unrealistic.
[00:04:46.69] - Gregg Garner
I don't know if it's obvious because I think a lot of people feel like We have some obligation to discover unity with anybody who names the name of Christ in any context anywhere. Mhmm. And Despite the fact that that's going to be realistically impossible, I I think people still uphold it as a value Yeah. Yeah. And imagine themselves into that.
[00:05:08.60] - Mitchel Buchanan
It's hard not to feel with social media or how things we're aware of so many things. It's hard to feel that you aren't Taking on all of those personally, it it's hard to have that realistic scope of, like, how God wants to use you.
[00:05:22.39] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. I think that sometimes people, They so much want to be unified that they idolize unity over and above Sure. The the means by which we demonstrate unity. So when you when you go over a text like that and you're trying to emphasize the unity, I I think that is a buzzword Mhmm. And our culture wants to experience
[00:05:43.30] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:05:43.60] - Gregg Garner
The the end of hostility and peace and unity is often a sign of that. Mhmm. So when when you're you're talking about this text And then talking about Paul's concern to see that kind of unity, but then talking about it in the context of the universality of the body of Christ, That feels confusing.
[00:06:00.50] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:01.19] - Gregg Garner
I don't I don't I don't know how that makes sense, particularly because he's talking to the Corinthians. Yeah. He's Yeah. And I know I know today we we read it. We're not Corinthian. So we get we get the principles, right, out of it. We can extract the values It is communicating a plan, but he wasn't writing a letter to me. Right. He was writing to a very particular people. So that that I don't know. I wanna hear more of your thoughts on this.
[00:06:23.19] - Brandon Galford
I think I think for Paul, There is a little bit of disconnect between his situation and ours because I think for Paul, The Jew Gentile dynamic was, you know, that was that was his his calling as an apostle to the Gentiles, And and extending this, you know, Abrahamic covenant to them. So for Paul, I do think that that, You know, he this gift from the Corinthians who were Gentile, for the Judean believers who were suffering. I think for Paul, it it did communicate a sign that that we are one family. Jew and Gentile really are united in that way. And so I think in that sense
[00:07:10.80] - Gregg Garner
But but we're not talking about, all the Jews and all the Gentiles. We were talking about the conflicts that arose in the Corinthian community between two cultural groups that had their Cultural practices that differentiated them. And and, actually, because you're talking about the Jews in Jerusalem Mhmm. You're talking about Two cultural groups in two geographic regions
[00:07:36.10] - Brandon Galford
Very different. Yeah.
[00:07:37.00] - Gregg Garner
Who who who don't even fellowship with one another. Right. Yet you're you're you're talking about them having a unity. And for the Jews, it's through the reception of the gift. And from the Gentiles, it's the giving of the gift. And you brought up Paul and his Crew is being the liaisons for that. Mhmm. So, like, are are you what value am I supposed to take away with this universality concept? Like, What what am I supposed to get from this?
[00:08:01.19] - Brandon Galford
I guess the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant is kinda where where my I know that's that's broad. That's big.
[00:08:07.80] - Gregg Garner
That all the families of the earth would be blessed?
[00:08:09.80] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. You know, he says in Romans fifteen, he makes that interesting move where where he talks about, How through the Jews, these Gentiles have received this spiritual enrichment through that lineage, and how they have a responsibility on the other end to Share their material goods. Now what all Paul's doing there in Romans fifteen, I'm I'm not entirely sure How that works? But I think for Paul, it was a thing that that there was some sort of demonstration happening here of, an an indebtedness maybe that the Gentiles had toward the Jews, and that in sharing with them material blessing or benefit. It was a a picture of how this family is now, has extended to incorporate The Gentiles in that sense. So what value currently? I don't know. Like, again, we we We can't be responsible, obviously, for the whole world. And I do think it's obvious in in light of what you're saying. I agree with you that, you know, a lot of people would Maybe have contention with that.
[00:09:17.50] - Gregg Garner
because I'm I'm just thinking about modernly with current events and what's happening in Palestine. Yeah. And, thinking about Our responsibility as Americans
[00:09:27.70] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:09:28.10] - Gregg Garner
Because we are in two different geographic regions. Yeah. Like and with what you're saying, Do we still have an obligation
[00:09:34.60] - Brandon Galford
That's a great question.
[00:09:36.60] - Gregg Garner
To the Jews even with Paul's new definition of Jews? Because are we talking about Jews, or are we talking about Jewish Christians? And if we're talking about Jewish Christians, what makes the distinction between Jewish Christians and Jews Yeah. In general? Because when we're thinking about Palestine, Gosh. What a what a diverse mixture of religion No doubt. Existing No doubt. Over there. So I'm I'm do do you get where I'm coming from?
[00:09:59.60] - Brandon Galford
Absolutely.
[00:10:01.39] - Gregg Garner
I thought it was an interesting thing to talk about in light of current events.
[00:10:04.79] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. No. I agree. And that it's something that I've I've wondered, I've prayed about, I've I I I what is our responsibility to that? I don't I don't know. Frankly, I don't know.
[00:10:21.89] - Gregg Garner
Because you you you said that there seems to be some kind of indebtedness that can be repaid through material generosity Mhmm. For that community of Jews in Jerusalem as a result of, the the Love or the covenant that now incorporates the Corinthians, the Gentiles. So now a sign of their Their fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant according to what you're saying is that now they feel the obligation just like a family member would To take care of These other family members Jerusalem. That's what I hear you saying. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So now I'm saying modernly...
[00:11:03.39] - Brandon Galford
better than the way I said it, but that's what Im trying to say modernly,
[00:11:05.50] - Gregg Garner
modernly, then, I'm asking the question because I think, people who are going to our church and watching the news, There they have that question. They're like, what are we supposed to do Yeah. About what's happening? Do we support Israel? Or do we and I I know this isn't a political podcast. I'm not trying to be political here, but I think that we can't help. But when I hear you talk like that Mhmm. I can't help but think about, the pain and suffering that people are going through Mhmm. In Palestine right now. Which is so egregious that Something like Instagram won't even show you The content without putting a sensitivity filter
[00:11:49.50] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:11:49.79] - Gregg Garner
Over the top of it. So there's some real things that are happening over there that, can be even painful to look at. Mhmm. And I hear you saying that a sign of the this universality, which I I hear you now speaking of universality in the context of Unified Mhmm. That they're that we're connected.
[00:12:12.20] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:12:12.89] - Gregg Garner
And so i'm just asking the question now. If we're connected, should there be an obligation on our part To be thinking about how through material means we can assist Jews in Israel, or It is is is this a a conversation between those who are in Christ and not just cultures in general Mhmm. And at large? You get what I'm saying?
[00:12:35.39] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely get what you're saying. I don't know. I I I wonder if I think the way that I think of see, I didn't I didn't go modern with it. I left it in Paul. I left it in Paul's time, and that for him, This was the birth of something. This is the beginning of something that was, you know, truly
[00:12:56.60] - Gregg Garner
I think we can stay in Paul's time because we should we should May you know, the key to biblical interpretation is not, treating it like a a book that's written to us today. Right? Right. Instead, it's identifying the the history, the culture, the social dynamics, even the linguistics, the grammar, the the way in which they talked at that Time Yeah. So that we could interpret what was communicated to the implied audience. Mhmm. Right? And now interpreting what's communicated To the implied audience, we extract from that principles that we could appropriate to our day and our time. So I think we can start with that. And, I guess my first question for you was the the the Jews in Jerusalem Mhmm. Were they Jews who were in Christ, or were they just Jews in general?
[00:13:43.10] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. He doesn't make clear. It's it's kind of...
[00:13:49.39] - Gregg Garner
he did. Even in your sermon, you highlighted That they had come into a famine, which is code for economic recession or depression. Mhmm. And that was the time when, James the Lesser was, assassinated.
[00:14:03.10] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:14:05.29] - Gregg Garner
in need.
[00:14:07.79] - Gregg Garner
brother of Jesus then takes over leadership, and that's with the community of disciples of Jesus. So I
[00:14:26.29] - Brandon Galford
has the Judean believers in view at the forefront. Does that concern extend beyond them, or is it just limited as far as the benevolence to The Judean believers in...
[00:14:37.10] - Gregg Garner
brought up Romans fifteen. We know nine through eleven. And nine through eleven is his communication to those Jews Who have not come under the lordship of Jesus.
[00:14:46.00] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:14:46.50] - Gregg Garner
So he he acknowledges that, there is Distinction between the two parties. Right? Yep. Absolutely. Himself would would be accursed so as to incorporate Mhmm. These These, Jews who are part of the culture that he grew up with
[00:15:02.39] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:15:03.60] - Gregg Garner
And even became so zealous for their cause that he persecuted Mhmm. Jesus and, what we'd call the church. Mhmm. So I I think it's I think it might be fair to say that he is limiting Whom this offering was going to to the Jews who were in Jerusalem that were believers in Christ. Right.
[00:15:26.10] - Brandon Galford
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I I would agree with that.
[00:15:28.29] - Gregg Garner
I don't think I don't think their, Wait.
[00:15:30.50] - Mitchel Buchanan
Because when Their
[00:15:31.20] - Gregg Garner
their scope of authority would expand beyond
[00:15:34.10] - Brandon Galford
How would they
[00:15:34.79] - Gregg Garner
that community.
[00:15:35.60] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Absolutely. Like, right now, if
[00:15:37.29] - Gregg Garner
I wanted to go help the Jews, in in in Israel, I don't even have a connection.
[00:15:42.00] - Mitchel Buchanan
Right. Which I think you're You're bringing up the specificity of who was receiving that generosity Yeah. Which I think at the forefront, obviously, it could be symbolic and, like, a There could be meaning beyond the actual gift that has broader implications, but probably the forefront of that communication and any generosity is meeting Practical specific needs.
[00:16:03.79] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:16:04.00] - Gregg Garner
Dude, we only have so many resources. Right? And if if I'm now being taught that anybody in need is is deserving of my resources, I even think Christian culture right now is, like, the more you don't know somebody, the more holy you are Oh, I you give to someone that you don't know.
[00:16:20.10] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Sure. You help out your brother, and it's like, so what? Yeah. It is like yeah.
[00:16:23.60] - Gregg Garner
Even though the Bible is always, like, help out your brother. Brother. He's like, how can you say you love god who you don't see When you don't love your brother, who you do see
[00:16:30.60] - Brandon Galford
Absolutely.
[00:16:31.10] - Gregg Garner
And that you do see doesn't mean, like, you you you're, like, they're you saw them on Instagram or on the news. Right. It's, like, People that you're in contact with. So, yeah, I I think that there is, a freedom that comes as a result of learning scripture, getting that truth. And one of the truths I think that people need to know with respect to our resources is that there is a priority for the destination of those resources Even when it comes to people in need, there's a network here. Like, they're not the these are not random people
[00:17:01.20] - Brandon Galford
Oh, yeah.
[00:17:02.00] - Gregg Garner
That they that Sent them an email and said, hey. We need some help in Jerusalem.
[00:17:05.79] - Brandon Galford
And his people Paul knows personally.
[00:17:07.29] - Gregg Garner
He knows
[00:17:07.70] - Brandon Galford
He's been there.
[00:17:08.40] - Gregg Garner
Right. He knows He's got a connection. There's a network. These guys are connected. Did Actually, they're part of so when you say the universality, that's what was getting me. It's like, am I responsible for the free methodists?
[00:17:17.40] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. No. No. No. In, India. I'm just thinking of cross You
[00:17:20.90] - Gregg Garner
have no problem with The
[00:17:22.29] - Brandon Galford
free master geographic This is gonna be the degrees.
[00:17:24.20] - Mitchel Buchanan
Six degrees of Kevin Bacon. We're gonna have to draw a connection from Greg Garner to the free master.
[00:17:28.59] - Brandon Galford
But but I also think Paul had in mind even the sign that would be for the Jews around that community who maybe hadn't received Jesus as Messiah That in hopes of of, you know, glorifying God through that.
[00:17:42.70] - Gregg Garner
So, like, a Matthew 05:16 kinda thing? Exactly. But So so you're you're coupling it under the statement good work. So this would be a good work.
[00:17:49.79] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:17:50.90] - Gregg Garner
When they get done, it does that.
[00:17:54.59] - Mitchel Buchanan
If they say any podcast topics have you started in this podcast
[00:17:58.09] - Gregg Garner
Sorry. Sorry.
[00:17:58.59] - Brandon Galford
Sorry. No. Listen.
[00:18:00.20] - Gregg Garner
Listen. Okay. So so I just wanna know why why that That's the, like why that's your focus? Why that's your concentration here?
[00:18:07.50] - Brandon Galford
Well, it was get
[00:18:08.40] - Gregg Garner
the the surrounding Jewish audience to notice the good works of the Corinthian community to take care of the Jews in their network.
[00:18:17.90] - Brandon Galford
In my own defense that received about one sentence in my service.
[00:18:22.90] - Gregg Garner
I'm sorry.
[00:18:23.40] - Brandon Galford
We're
[00:18:23.59] - Gregg Garner
just talking, man.
[00:18:24.50] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was I I going back even to Romans chapter nine through eleven and Paul's heart for, The Jews who weren't who hadn't believed in Jesus as Messiah. You know, his burden was for them. I think, you know, Paul Paul wanted to really help these Jews to see that the Abrahamic Covenant was being fulfilled, And that God is incorporating these Gentiles, and and they can have the spirit of God just like you do. And and This generosity is a demonstration of that that
[00:19:00.50] - Gregg Garner
But not to the unincorporated Jews who are are are not part of the now body of Christ. Right?
[00:19:16.29] - Brandon Galford
Wait. Say that again. I'm sorry. So it
[00:19:18.00] - Gregg Garner
sounds like you're saying that Paul was concerned with the demonstration of the universality of the Abrahamic covenant to show the Jews that Gentiles are now integrated. And I'm saying that the integration Or the unity isn't merely a result of, having a a a now network with them that they're they're, like, going, oh, wow. They're helping out Jews. That's cool. I'm glad to see that. Oh, we're fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant. The fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant is is multifold, but one of the Main points of Paul, even in Romans, is that, we're children of Abraham by faith Mhmm. Not by DNA. Mhmm. And in that case, The unity or the brotherhood, the sisterhood between the Gentile Corinthians and the Jewish believers in Jerusalem Was their faith in Jesus Mhmm. Not their DNA.
[00:20:13.59] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:20:14.00] - Gregg Garner
And so I'm I'm just I'm wondering why it's So important right now to be concerned with the Abrahamic covenant making sense of Or making sense to the Jewish nonbelievers because they're witnessing generosity.
[00:20:37.20] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. I I don't, I'm sorry. I'm I'm missing I'm missing the I'm missing the the thrust of the question. Help help me out.
[00:20:49.20] - Gregg Garner
So the first point I wanted to make and because when I was hearing you initially, you made no distinction between the Jews and the Jewish believers In Jerusalem.
[00:20:56.50] - Brandon Galford
But there is
[00:20:56.90] - Gregg Garner
He just said Jews. There's a distinct There is a clear distinction. Absolutely. In fact, the Jews that are in Jerusalem are going to be after, Grant's Sermon, if you keep going in acts, they're the very guys that turn Paul over Right. So that he he's, goes, ultimately to Caesar. Right? Appeals Caesar. Right? Appeals
[00:21:13.00] - Brandon Galford
Caesar. Right? Appeals Caesar. Right? Appeals to Caesar. Mhmm. So there's some hostility from some hostility from
[00:21:13.20] - Gregg Garner
some hostility from some hostility from those guys, but there from those guys. But there are other Jewish believers who are part of the household of faith, which is the Galatians six term that Paul uses To highlight what he made in argument between chapters three and four of Galatians. Right?
[00:21:29.90] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:21:30.20] - Gregg Garner
Which is that we are in Christ by faith
[00:21:32.90] - Brandon Galford
By faith. Yeah.
[00:21:34.09] - Gregg Garner
Not by works. And works in that context has to do with DNA. Yep. Right? Has to do with, that physical earthly Yep. Connection.
[00:21:42.50] - Brandon Galford
Yep.
[00:21:42.90] - Gregg Garner
So I'm saying that if if this Abrahamic covenant is being fulfilled and Paul wants the the the Jews To, see that as, something that encourages them to understand God's Vision for how the world could be is now happening. Mhmm. That all happens in Christ, not outside of Christ.
[00:22:06.09] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:22:06.90] - Gregg Garner
My concern is I don't want us to to think that, while while all the nations, All the families of the earth will be blessed. Right? That's the end element
[00:22:17.20] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:22:17.50] - Gregg Garner
Of the Abrahamic covenant.
[00:22:18.79] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:22:19.50] - Gregg Garner
The the I I think that It's gonna be really hard to have unity with everyone.
[00:22:26.00] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Sure.
[00:22:26.90] - Gregg Garner
All these different value systems. Possible. Like, we can have peace. But unity and peace, there's this there's a distinction between the two. I can have peace with a fellow Muslim. I can have peace, But Unity just inherently
[00:22:41.09] - Brandon Galford
Assume
[00:22:41.50] - Gregg Garner
our value systems are are different.
[00:22:43.59] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:22:44.00] - Gregg Garner
I can't have unity with them in terms of eve even how we're gonna raise our children Or what we believe education should look like. There's there's gonna be inherent disunity as a result of our value systems, but I can have peace with them. Mhmm. I can respect them. Mhmm. And so I I even if I'm part of their community, we can do business together. We can make sure that that there there is fair treatment to people. Like, there's a lot of things that we can do So that all the families of the earth are also blessed.
[00:23:10.79] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:23:11.09] - Gregg Garner
But there's this family of Abraham by faith Mhmm. That now we call the body of Christ. Right?
[00:23:16.59] - Brandon Galford
Right. Right.
[00:23:17.70] - Gregg Garner
And and I I just I I'm trying to help make sense of that. In in your defense, as you said, one sentence, it it wasn't a lot of thought, but It was it was one of your points
[00:23:28.20] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:23:28.59] - Gregg Garner
That this is this is something you believe Paul really wanted to demonstrate. And I think if anything, Paul wants to if I can Take your words and just, maybe update them. Yeah. Paul wanted to demonstrate the unity of the Jewish believers And the Corinthian gentile believers that being in Christ made them responsible for one another to the degree They would even give, generously towards their need.
[00:23:57.90] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. And that's that's what I'm that's what I'm that's what I'm going for.
[00:24:00.70] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:01.59] - Brandon Galford
And that's what I'm going for.
[00:24:02.59] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I I hope you can hear, though, when when you're just saying Jews and then universality.
[00:24:07.29] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:07.90] - Gregg Garner
And then you think about our modern day, because now we interpret that and we appropriate it. I feel
[00:24:12.20] - Brandon Galford
super overwhelmed. Yeah. That's valid, very valid, dude.
[00:24:14.90] - Gregg Garner
I don't even have a Jewish connection In the Israel, am I supposed to see Am
[00:24:18.59] - Brandon Galford
I supposed to? Right? Right.
[00:24:20.09] - Gregg Garner
Because I wanna do right. Right. Right? We wanna do righteous. Yeah. So, like, how how does that work? Does this Show that I am fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant when all of a sudden I'm returning out to Israel and helping those Jews understand, hey. We're gonna take care of you Because we're indebted to you because you guys set the tone for our faith. Does that still apply two thousand years later?
[00:24:41.79] - Brandon Galford
Is Valid consideration. Yeah.
[00:24:43.79] - Gregg Garner
And and for some people, I think it does. Yeah. Yeah. I think for some people, even listening to me here, it's hard to hear me saying anything
[00:24:49.59] - Brandon Galford
Anything up there.
[00:24:50.40] - Gregg Garner
Other than, is he a Zionist or not. Right. Right.
[00:24:52.79] - Brandon Galford
Right. Right. Exactly.
[00:24:53.20] - Gregg Garner
Is is he is he loyal to Israel or not?
[00:24:56.09] - Brandon Galford
Exactly. And
[00:24:56.70] - Gregg Garner
I'm not even trying to be fit into those categories. I'm pragmatically Wondering right now with everything that's going on in Israel, what can I do? And, I think our congregation is feeling the same thing. What can they do? What are we obligated to do? And, we we want we wanna know that information. I think a healthy Thing to consider here is that there are sincere limitations on who we are as people Mhmm. Based upon Our our networks, our Right. Capacity. So, like, if if I worked for the u United States government And I was, involved in foreign affairs in the Middle East. Mhmm. I would have a complete obligation as a believer in Christ because I'd likely have networks Yeah. Out there and things I could do and ways I could coordinate. I mean, if someone like that wants to get in touch with us, like, we could figure that out.
[00:25:48.09] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:25:48.50] - Gregg Garner
But it's like, Right now, not having any of that, which I think most of our people don't, and when we see all of that pain and suffering, we wanna respond. We wanna do something. And I've seen too often over the years, ministry is just all of a sudden emerge with a new relief type program That is now gonna like, because you brought up in your sermon collecting blankets.
[00:26:08.29] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:26:08.70] - Gregg Garner
Remember? Yep. You're like, I'm gonna collect all the blankets.
[00:26:11.29] - Brandon Galford
Yep.
[00:26:12.09] - Gregg Garner
You you took your inheritance money. You you bought all those blankets. Your your your, what what what you had? It was a black, Pathfinder.
[00:26:20.59] - Brandon Galford
Was it Yeah. QX Four. QXR. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
[00:26:25.00] - Gregg Garner
And and you you pack that thing of the rim. Yep. Right? And Your your your impassioned to do the right thing.
[00:26:32.00] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:26:32.79] - Gregg Garner
And to to get these blankets through the voice of the martyrs to the Sudanese folks who who had need. Now I don't think this is completely analogous to what we're talking about here because you you, You felt very burdened to attend to the needs of people that you'd never met or didn't know. Mhmm. But you knew that there were some liaisons who had. Right. So part of your sermon was, For the Corinthians, they may not know the Jews in Jerusalem who are believers, but Paul did. Therefore, he stands in an intermediary Position to say they're your family. Give to them. Voice of the Martyrs did that for you, for Christian believers in Sudan, But not for all the Sudanese.
[00:27:15.90] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:27:16.29] - Gregg Garner
So there was some favoritism
[00:27:18.90] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:27:20.29] - Gregg Garner
That was displayed to Christian believers who are Sudanese, Not all Sudanese. Correct? Yeah. Is that bad? No. And that's the freedom I want
[00:27:28.50] - Brandon Galford
people to have. Yeah. Right? Like, because Favoritism, priority.
[00:27:33.40] - Mitchel Buchanan
Are you saying those are synonyms synonyms?
[00:27:35.50] - Gregg Garner
I I was saying favoritism because that would be the negative critical way talk about this. Right. Right? Yeah. Like like, when someone says something like, so you're gonna do that for your kid and not for other kids? I think people said that's favoritism, but it's like, That's exactly what God's doing. Mhmm. But and it's not favoritism. It's it's but we also know the The modern term for grace, the way we use grace is, definitely is super New Testament. Right? Mhmm. And that was also part of your sermon, Which I I have a bone to pick with you on that in terms of using Greek
[00:28:07.70] - Brandon Galford
On grace?
[00:28:08.29] - Gregg Garner
On yeah. And and and not allowing it to be gift and things. But we'll talk about that in a second. It is gift.
[00:28:14.50] - Brandon Galford
What did I say?
[00:28:15.70] - Gregg Garner
You you wanted I think you wanted to highlight grace. You wanted to highlight grace.
[00:28:20.00] - Brandon Galford
Well no. But but And and It's gift in that context. I know. But you get to say gracious. Gracious gift. Varys is gift. Gift is the right rendering of the word in that context, like, over and over. Yeah.
[00:28:34.59] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:28:34.79] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. I may not have said it In the sermon Maybe you did.
[00:28:37.90] - Gregg Garner
Maybe you did. But it seemed you were trying to emphasize graciousness rather than gift. And so, there's definitely connections between the two. Right? Yeah.
[00:28:45.90] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:28:46.29] - Gregg Garner
Grace and and Yeah. And giftedness. And, but, anyways, back to what we're talking about here. I I think that, If if we are to talk about, like, that old testament version of the term grace, it would be the word favor.
[00:29:01.09] - Brandon Galford
Favor.
[00:29:01.59] - Gregg Garner
Right?
[00:29:02.09] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:29:02.90] - Gregg Garner
When when the angel comes to Mary and says great favor has been shown to her, it's the same, term for grace.
[00:29:10.20] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:29:10.79] - Gregg Garner
So the the our same concept. So, you know, the there's the favoritism then in that way.
[00:29:18.29] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:29:18.50] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. But, yeah, I I think I think a a more generous or charitable way of talking about it would be priority.
[00:29:23.59] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:29:24.00] - Gregg Garner
Right? I'm not gonna be mad at anybody for prioritizing their kids when it comes to the distribution Of their their wealth. I'm not mad at you. Yeah. Like
[00:29:32.50] - Mitchel Buchanan
Which it's because it's natural to do and It is honed in by very specific limitations where Paul is very connected to the Corinthian community, very connected to two communities that he
[00:29:45.79] - Gregg Garner
has And he's bridging them.
[00:29:47.40] - Mitchel Buchanan
Yeah. And he has investment personal investment into each one, Which it it it makes a very stronger, compelling, I think, petition for please help me because it's connected to how I've Spent my life, how I'm contributing
[00:30:02.00] - Gregg Garner
Think about it this way. Okay? Like because because, again, we're moving to the appropriation thing. Right? So why are we just helping these four other regions? Why are we just helping Kenya and Uganda and people in El Salvador, people in India in these specific places? There's so much need out there. Why aren't we helping everybody? Why aren't we the kind of church That just universally Mhmm. Helps everybody out there. And Mhmm. I'm just trying to, use your sermon as A way for us to clarify what I believe is part of the value system connected to generosity. Like, if you're thinking about Generosity having a process for implementation. Mhmm. One of the checks and balances in it is that are you connected to these people? Because there there there is a kind of generosity that we can have with just anybody out there. But when Jesus tells even his stories concerning Gracious acts like the good Samaritan. He didn't expect somebody not on the road to Jericho to to take care of the guy.
[00:31:01.79] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:31:02.20] - Gregg Garner
Right? There's a connection there. There's Yeah. Understood. Right? He doesn't condemn the the Levite and the priest because they were on a different road and should have known that They should be monitoring that road. It's that they saw him. They came near. So the the proximity and the connection, just what you're talking about, Rachel, connections of two different communities. And then allowing, which I thought you made as a great point in your sermon, Paul and his crew were the liaisons. Mhmm. They were the connection between these two communities who may not know one another, but they knew these guys, And these guys knew one another, which, again, brings up all of the suspicion on these guys because they're like, well, we don't actually know the people that you're connecting us to, but we know you guys. And we're wondering what you're doing with this money, and we're wondering whether or not things are actually happening. And so Paul's like, you've gotta look at our life, Which going to your sermon is a big part of of even what he had to tell them. Like, we've not taken anything. Yeah. Right? Like, we haven't coveted anything that you guys had. Instead, we we've even made our own income so that you wouldn't even have an opportunity to criticize us. And you and I should be taught and our communities need to be taught that we don't have to apply that kind of suspicion on people so that in order for them to be a Generous liaison. They have to suffer their whole life.
[00:32:23.00] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:32:23.20] - Gregg Garner
Right? Which is why so many people won't let their kids become ministers. Because they're they're just like, Man, if my kid becomes a mission missionary, they're just gonna weave baskets in Africa and suffer their whole life Yeah. Because that's what Paul apostle did. Paul apostle was doing what he did. Think Colossians chapter one. Right? That he was fulfilling what was lacking. He, like, he was suffering Yeah. In such a way because, other people weren't picking up the slack. Mhmm. But as more of the community picked up the slack and helped them with the offerings and did things like that and then didn't damage his reputation And then help them to make the connection between the two communities in Christ, there there was gonna be a better version of the kingdom manifesting.
[00:32:59.79] - Brandon Galford
So I just just
[00:33:00.20] - Gregg Garner
just just I'm just wanting that to To get across because
[00:33:03.20] - Brandon Galford
I think it's a helpful clarification.
[00:33:05.00] - Gregg Garner
No. Because I think that's what you intended to
[00:33:06.70] - Brandon Galford
communicate. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:08.50] - Gregg Garner
So that when when we are working with these Communities abroad. The reason why we're not, all of a sudden raising funds for a community in Pakistan is because we don't know a community in Pakistan. And even if someone, as a result of watching this YouTube from Pakistan, wrote like, sent us an email and said, hey. We watched your YouTube channel and we need some help, be generous to us, I'd be like, I don't know you. And if you're like, gosh, That's a terrible thing to say to somebody. I would just like to remind you Jesus said it first. Yeah. Okay. Jesus said it first. There's nothing wrong With not attending to the needs of people you don't know.
[00:33:44.40] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:33:45.09] - Gregg Garner
And I think that we have driven ourselves a little mad Wanting to just help everybody in in anybody out there that we don't even know. And and when there's So much to do. Like, what if every family learned that it was okay to prioritize taking care of your family and then your extended family, and then as God bless says you that flows into other families' lives, but that everybody had the right mindset that my first Priority responsibility is my family. Now we take that same concept into our family of faith. And and it it's It I just think things would go so much better.
[00:34:22.59] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:34:23.40] - Gregg Garner
But I think our our culture really, really prizes this idea that The the better that we help, someone we don't know, the more holy or Christian we are. Mhmm.
[00:34:36.09] - Brandon Galford
It's out there.
[00:34:37.00] - Mitchel Buchanan
It's Helping someone you don't know Has a perceived value of more selflessness
[00:34:42.69] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:34:42.90] - Mitchel Buchanan
Because it's, hey. I'm generous to whoever it may be or someone in need that I
[00:34:47.40] - Gregg Garner
can't show favoritism. I'm impartial. Sure. I Or that you that point, it's like who it's like whoever first asks you wins.
[00:34:54.40] - Mitchel Buchanan
Yeah. Or that maybe you're personally moved by the need Self, not necessarily by
[00:35:01.30] - Brandon Galford
The person. The person. Yeah.
[00:35:02.90] - Mitchel Buchanan
Correct. So then I I think even, biblically, I think you were just With Brandon drawing out very strongly, these are Christian believers. It's Paul's connection wasn't just between two bodies. It was two people who shared a mind, shared that heart, And shared the word where it's like, hey. This is so you're investing into something that has a pause is is positive in the kingdom. It's beneficial for others To, like, you know, be blessed because they're gonna bless others.
[00:35:28.69] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:35:29.00] - Mitchel Buchanan
It has that shared knowledge. And then Paul really extended his his own reputation, his own influence of, like, hey. This is a need, and I know it is. It's not given to some stranger or someone I don't know their intentions. It's given to someone who, like, wants to live out the same mission me and you have. Yeah.
[00:35:45.69] - Gregg Garner
This And we have an obligation for for
[00:35:47.30] - Brandon Galford
for for Yeah. Right?
[00:35:48.09] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I think Mitchell, you're making you're making a a good tie in point because I think often churches Want to teach this type of theology of just strangers and anybody out there, because it even becomes part of their their expansion efforts or their recruiting efforts. Because you you now have people you don't know coming in, and, they they, you know, hit hit people up for the benevolence fund. Or then then they're like, well, you need to become of our church part of our church. You need to go through membership classes. They get into that, and now they can tap into the benevolence fund or be a part of whatever. And and and I know not everybody's thinking like this. Mhmm. But I do think that with the kind of evangelical efforts that churches have, It you it's I I remember nobody being excited about me coming to church, but if there was a visitor, people went bonkers, dude, growing up. They're like, oh my god. It's a fresh soul. Like, all these other souls, I'm tired of. Like, let's give all attention to the fresh soul. We're so glad you're here. Blah blah blah. Right? Like, this over exaggerated hospitality with an impartiality towards the new person you don't know
[00:36:56.00] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:36:56.40] - Gregg Garner
Which I don't mind. I think that's think it's fine to treat people. It's great to treat people with the kind of kindness and hospitality that welcomes them.
[00:37:03.80] - Brandon Galford
For sure.
[00:37:04.30] - Gregg Garner
But I do think that there should be an understanding That when you have people who are committed to you and you're committed to them, when you have people who who settle and go, you know, this is my community of faith. The this is the church I belong to. These are the my people. Like, we have to reciprocate that in with partiality. Now people are like, that's unbiblical. You're supposed to open your hand to the poor, and and you're you're to be impartial in your judgment, that's the wisdom of James. It that's not the wisdom of James. That's a misreading
[00:37:33.00] - Brandon Galford
Right.
[00:37:33.30] - Gregg Garner
Of the wisdom of of James. Mhmm. In your congregation, it says, like, in years to show impartiality between the poor and the rich, Not the favorite one based upon their economic status, but that's still within the community. Right? So, there there's there is A prioritized consideration Mhmm. For the people who are a part of your body
[00:37:54.09] - Brandon Galford
Yeah.
[00:37:54.40] - Gregg Garner
That exists outside the scope of modern conversations concerning the universality of the body of Christ. Mhmm. You know, like, this international big broad kind of thing. Right. Like, early on in our ministry's mission statement, it said the international body of Christ. Mhmm. And as I I I I had that removed Mhmm. Because I saw what it was doing in people's thoughts. I was trying to highlight in the statement That, we're not all American. Like, you're not in inherently Christian or, You know, there's us and them kinda thing, but then the the body is made up of all the nations, international. But I I noticed that instead what it it Started to communicate to people was that there was a universality
[00:38:39.30] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:38:39.59] - Gregg Garner
To the body of Christ that now, obligate it would obligate us to, ecumenical type efforts to find unity with with other groups when Those just seem to never work out outside of negotiating peace, but in the same way you would with any religion. Mhmm. Any group of faith. So that that that that I was that was part of where I was I was coming from.
[00:39:06.40] - Brandon Galford
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful. But but universal, I had in mind just Transcending the geographic and ethnic and cultural gap. Yeah. But this the clarification you you're bringing is Very important.
[00:39:18.09] - Gregg Garner
At first, I thought you might have been, addressing because you brought up Abrahamic covenant, the distinction between the very particular Revelation of God to the Jews versus the universal revelation of God to humanity. Or in Genesis chapters one through eleven
[00:39:35.69] - Brandon Galford
Mhmm.
[00:39:36.00] - Gregg Garner
Verses twelve to fifty. Yeah. Right? So at first, I thought you're talking about that universality. Okay. But then you said the body of Christ, and I was like, record Scratch. That isn't gonna Yeah. Yeah. It isn't gonna work anymore. And so I'm I'm happy to to hear the clarity on this. Yeah.
[00:39:49.09] - Mitchel Buchanan
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