This Podcast discusses the importance of forgiveness in upholding holiness within a community, referencing Hebrews 12:14. It explores the development and potential impact of a root of bitterness on relationships. The speakers share personal experiences of resolving conflicts through open communication and forgiveness. They emphasize the significance of how conflicts shape others' perception of God. The Podcast concludes by highlighting the need to be proactive in addressing and resolving conflicts to prevent bitterness.
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[00:00:09.80] - Gregg Garner
Welcome back to the church community for God's sermon podcast, where we get together with all of the preachers from the previous month With respect to the various topics that we have been reviewing, and in this season, we are reviewing different values That our church holds and the value that we are talking about today is forgiveness. And we have with us Brett Madron, Jeff Sherrod. But right now, we're going to hear from Deborah Nava, who is going to tell us the verse that she worked with and what were some of the main points you were trying to get across for everybody?
[00:00:47.10] - Deb Nava
Okay. I'll go ahead and share from Hebrews 12:14. Strive for peace with everyone and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God, That no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and by it, many become defiled. Alright. So one of the main things that I focused on during my sermon was talking about the communal responsibility of upholding holiness together, and one of the ways that we can practically do that is by forgiving one another. And in the context of what this scripture was, it was, by looking at the offenses that were incurred outside the community as well as inside the community. And however that offense occurred, we still have a responsibility to Forgive so that that root of bitterness doesn't take hold and then, you know, defile or make everybody else, Dirty by that kind of, behavior.
[00:01:47.09] - Gregg Garner
So let's get that reference one more time. What was your reference?
[00:01:49.79] - Deb Nava
Hebrews 12:14 and fifteen.
[00:01:51.50] - Gregg Garner
Hebrews 12:14 and And if you were to, again, summarize, like, the point you wanted everyone to take home, what would that be?
[00:02:04.59] - Deb Nava
If we, as a community, want others to see the Lord. Our responsibility in holiness is to forgive.
[00:02:17.50] - Gregg Garner
Awesome. So it is a a characterizing trait to forgive when it comes to observing holiness in the community.
[00:02:25.59] - Deb Nava
Yeah.
[00:02:26.00] - Gregg Garner
If you don't see the practice of forgiveness, then that's an indicator that there's a lacking of holiness.
[00:02:32.00] - Deb Nava
Yeah. That was Essentially what I was getting at.
[00:02:34.80] - Gregg Garner
That's good and challenging.
[00:02:36.40] - Brett Madron
No doubt.
[00:02:36.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Definitely challenging.
[00:02:37.90] - Gregg Garner
I think in our, yeah, in our modern context Right. We don't have many, like, institutional frameworks for observing whether or not forgiveness is happening. Yeah. So that that's a a tough one to discern Side of, getting into the, I don't know, the gossip of what's going on between people and finding out whether or not tensions have been resolved and Mhmm. Conflicts, ended in forgiveness. It's it's a little tough to make that observation.
[00:03:07.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I was thinking even with the holiness consideration, Forgiveness it's I think in our culture, it's so personalized. It's like, I'm either gonna keep it or I'm gonna Retain it. There's not, like, a communal expectation to say, hey. You should forgive. You know, the thing would be, I think, well, this is that's not your business. This is my business. I'll make a decision to do it when I can. So I think that's also maybe part of the holiness consideration too, the pressure even the good pressure Mhmm. That we put on one another to say, Hey. This is part of the requirements to to be holy as our father is holy Is to forgive.
[00:03:42.80] - Deb Nava
Right. And it's also sharing a care For the people in the community around you because you you know that by whether or not you forgive, you are affecting the people around you. And you're affecting, the ability, you know, for holiness to be observed even from the outside, based on that kind of interaction or behavior or whatever it is that you're doing, you by withholding or forgiving, you are affecting, One another.
[00:04:09.19] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. This this concept of the the the root of bitterness that springs up. I know a lot of people will use it Yeah. And throw it around and talk about it. For you, how do you think that takes place in the context of a community? Like, how, Is is it like I say something with such great magnitude that then it triggers the the the bitterness threshold? And then at that point, There's a potential for something getting really bad, or is it like a a time component? Like, I I created an offense, and I I deferred interacting and eventually, I felt like I'd forgive, but certain amount of time has passed without any interaction and forgiveness. So now that creates bitterness. Like, what are the components of consideration for someone? Because I think most people, like, with a positive spin on on themselves, They're gonna be like, I'm not bitter about that.
[00:05:03.39] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:05:04.19] - Gregg Garner
and so the ir like, they're just confessing a lack of bitterness rather than having an actual rubric in their mind As to give them a way to grade themselves. Mhmm. You know? Like, I look on the scale, and it tells me my weight. I can't argue with it. That's what it says.
[00:05:19.60] - Jeff Sherrod
You could say the scale is wrong.
[00:05:21.60] - Gregg Garner
You can. Right? Now you're delusional. But I think it's always helpful when a teacher can help somebody understand a rubric. Right?
[00:05:31.69] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:05:32.00] - Gregg Garner
Like, this is these are the things considered. So for you, what what is it? Like, what creates the root of bitterness?
[00:05:36.69] - Deb Nava
This is a good question. I think even if you think about the concept of a root, like, roots do take time. And, kind of what I alluded to in the sermon is that it's hidden. S y ou might see, Like, one aspect of that, and it might come out in, like, a Snyder remark or, something like that. But I think Because roots take time to develop and to, like, set themselves in, I think that's a a a component of being able to, you know, Measure whether or not, like, something has
[00:06:11.50] - Gregg Garner
Because we don't want there to be a root of bitterness. So we gotta kinda catch it before it Grows down its roots. Right?
[00:06:16.80] - Deb Nava
Yeah. Right.
[00:06:17.30] - Gregg Garner
But what you said is is so important of the metaphor that it's all underground.
[00:06:21.39] - Deb Nava
Yeah.
[00:06:22.19] - Gregg Garner
Because it's throwing down roots before anything comes up. And the text is, like, The roots are what we're looking at. So how do we how do we look underground? You know, like, how does that metaphor carry out? Does that mean, like, Our hearts, disposition is what we're supposed to be evaluating. Like and and how do we keep each other accountable to that without crying? And crying isn't popular anymore.
[00:06:46.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Maybe can I ask a follow-up question? It relates to this. So in our accountability group, we talked about This and one of the questions that came up, was someone saying, I've forgiven this person, but I'll never treat them the same way again. You know, like and so we had, I thought, a healthy kind of conversation is like, is that a root of bitterness? Felt to me like it was.
[00:07:06.50] - Brett Madron
It feels like it.
[00:07:07.60] - Jeff Sherrod
But they were like, I'm not gonna Burned again. It's happened enough times. Like, I can forgive and still treat them. We're talking about someone within the community. This is not like
[00:07:16.19] - Gregg Garner
So, like, a A brother in Christ. sister in Christ. Family of faith.
[00:07:20.60] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. And, yeah, that was the that was the position that this person was at the time is that I can forgive. our question was, what is forgiveness then? Like, is it just this kind of ephemeral thing that you Say
[00:07:33.89] - Brett Madron
you can be nice to them now
[00:07:34.89] - Jeff Sherrod
But, it has fundamentally changed the way that I'm gonna work with you You know, from now on.
[00:07:41.50] - Brett Madron
That doesn't feel good.
[00:07:42.39] - Jeff Sherrod
Is that still a root of bitterness? Like...
[00:07:44.19] - Gregg Garner
That seems like the definition of a fruit of anything. Right? Because some people they can't see it themselves apparently.
[00:07:49.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:07:50.60] - Gregg Garner
And they think they're justified in their explanation there, but there's something in the soil . That, Probably everybody else in the room was able to see.
[00:07:59.60] - Jeff Sherrod
That's right. Yeah. Because I think everyone else in there was like, I don't think that's what Jesus was trying to get after with the seventy times seven.
[00:08:05.50] - Gregg Garner
Right? Not at all. I mean, in in another text, when like, Matthew eighteen If you can't get to a place of agreement and win over the brother according to What it is that God wants to have for us in terms of peace, like Hebrews twelve was talking about, then at that point, you can treat them like a gentile Which is not To say treat them mean is to treat them more like the way that person's talking there.
[00:08:28.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:08:29.19] - Gregg Garner
Like, yeah. I let it go, but I'm just It's universal at this point. It's just unconditional love Instead of the the conditioned kind of love based upon the expectations we have for family members.
[00:08:42.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Right
[00:08:42.20] - Brett Madron
I think if you don't spend a lot of time with that person practically, then it's easier to get to a place where it's like I've forgiven them. Yeah. You know, this probably isn't gonna be the same moving forward, but I don't see them a lot. You know, I'm just trying to think of, like, how you...
[00:08:59.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, but, Obviously, the interaction planted the seed, and now the seed's thrown down roots. Because what can happen over time like, so now we get that the root is defined as A bitter root. I think that we have to recognize that we do eat roots. Like, there there are like, we don't necessarily have to see this grow into something that produces fruit on the top. And the roots are bitter.
[00:09:26.10] - Deb Nava
Mhmm.
[00:09:26.60] - Gregg Garner
And, if if you talk to I mean, apparently, and the gardeners would all know this better than I, but, Apparently, there are some vegetables or roots that, we'd consider to be bitter, but the problem was they weren't nourished correctly in the soil, and they weren't grown in the way that they should have been grown. And so a lot of our society has gotten used to Certain, vegetables and roots having a a bitter taste, but it's just because it it wasn't, grown the way it was supposed to go. You guys ever hear about this kind of stuff?
[00:10:04.29] - Jeff Sherrod
No. I'm I'm believing in how you're saying it because that sounds totally accurate.
[00:10:07.89] - Gregg Garner
But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And to me, that's really interesting that you got everybody going, oh, that's a bit or something. And then you you eat it with where someone else grew it and took care of the roots. And now, people go, oh, that that's weird. That tastes different. That's that's a neutral taste. It doesn't have bitter. So bitterness is something we discern, and it's in it's in the taste. And at this point, if the person's like, well, I don't have any contact with them anymore, or I'm not around them too much, you had enough contact So that now a seed was planted Yeah. And now there are roots in you. And the idea is if you've got those those roots that are characterized by bitterness, Like, that's in you now.
[00:10:45.10] - Brett Madron
It's doing something. Yeah.
[00:10:46.29] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. That's in you. Mhmm. And your your your soil is, apparently not healthy enough To get those roots to be edible and and enjoyable.
[00:10:57.60] - Jeff Sherrod
I don't know if I've ever actually thought about the metaphor alluding to an edible root. Just maybe I thought about, like, bitter being bad.
[00:11:06.20] - Deb Nava
Yeah.
[00:11:07.10] - Jeff Sherrod
But I do know, like, you know, from gardening, if you let things stay in the ground too long Yeah. That's often what turns things better.
[00:11:14.39] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:11:14.60] - Jeff Sherrod
It's like there's a time that you gotta take it out if it's gonna be edible. But if you rest on it, Then Yeah. Then it's so maybe even that's part of the metaphor too. It's like there was a time that this could have you could have dealt with it, could have been great for everybody, but now you've let it fester, And it's turned into along what you're saying, it's like we they didn't plan it the right way. They took it out either too long or something like that.
[00:11:33.70] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. It 's a curious It it probably needs, like, a like, an investigation into . I'm curious. Right? Words. Right? Let's See
[00:11:42.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Let's See what's happening.
[00:11:42.79] - Gregg Garner
Just because, like, On the other hand, I think sometimes we would equate it with, like, a a weed, something that's not supposed to be in there.
[00:11:50.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:11:52.10] - Gregg Garner
And so but, like, yeah, you wouldn't ever consider a weed edible. And in that case, you wouldn't think about it as bitter. Bitter. So this is Something edible. So so it's like is the writer of Hebrews trying to teach us that every interaction can Because of the peace that God wants to make with us, be beneficial towards our own soil
[00:12:16.50] - Deb Nava
Mhmm.
[00:12:17.00] - Gregg Garner
And the the The result of the interaction doesn't have to spoil and become bitter, but it can actually produce some kind of good tasting fruit. I know that in the conflicts that I've had, the ones that resolve really well do exactly that. They become something that you learn from, you grow from. They can even encourage you to, confront when you maybe felt it would be better just to let it rest and figure it out recently. I had an interaction with someone. I was meeting with one person, and then they had a they had a a a situation where They were stressed and their scenario, made it so that, like, whatever stress was on them was probably gonna be too much anyways. So then, they told me about the person I'm talking to. I have a good relationship with that person, so I called them on the phone, on speaker phone, And I just said, hey. Is this happening? Can we get this changed? It'd be better go this way. Here's the reasons why. First is like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just said, yeah. I think that, it was it was it was probably pretty like, a simplistic approach was taken to solving the scenario, and it's it's much more complex than that. So, I'd just appreciate if we Just did it this way because, so and so is capable of understanding the complexity of the scenario. And the person agreed, and they're very happy. A couple hours later, I get a really long text, and it's like I was really hurt by what you said. I don't consider myself a simple person because I'm the one who came up with that plan,
[00:13:56.89] - Brett Madron
Yeah. That's interesting.
[00:13:58.39] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. Alright. And that's how you feel in the moment. Like, yikes all of that. That's what happened. But I said, hey. Can we can we talk face to face about this? I don't wanna do this on text. And the person came, within an hour, and we sat there, and we worked it out. And I commended them for confronting me altogether, instead of letting it turn into what could become a root of bitterness
[00:14:21.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:14:22.39] - Gregg Garner
The person just said, hey. You hurt me, And, I wanna hear about it. I wanna hear why. Then I was able to explain because even the words morphed, Even the way that they heard it
[00:14:34.70] - Deb Nava
Yeah.
[00:14:35.10] - Gregg Garner
I said that they were a simple minded person, which I was like, I don't think I would have said that. I understand simple minded people. I don't think I'd say that. And and as we talk through it, they're like, that makes sense. Yeah. And it it just, At the end, you know, we had peace. I think whatever would have become bitter, it's not going to be, But there's still some roots there that hopefully will produce, for this person, I some fruit that says It's it's okay to immediately go to somebody and say, hey. I was hurt. Let's let's work this out. And that That to me is a good thing.
[00:15:14.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I think so too. Yeah. Because you didn't just fix that situation. You potentially fixed ten situations going forward because we're going to offend each other. And
[00:15:26.10] - Gregg Garner
And we forgave each other.
[00:15:27.70] - Deb Nava
Yeah. Right.
[00:15:29.20] - Jeff Sherrod
And we came up with the pattern that says, hey. You saw this work now.
[00:15:32.70] - Brett Madron
Success story makes it easier the next time.
[00:15:35.10] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. It does. Right. It totally does.
[00:15:36.89] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. On the other hand, have that person just said, You know what? It's not a big deal. I I I understand Greg's heart. He's probably stressed, and a lot's going on. And And, he's he's a little sharp tongue sometimes, so I'm just gonna let this one pass. That to me is where the root now is like, Okay. I think that's the the sound of bitterness.
[00:15:59.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Do you think that there is some wisdom being like, alright. Maybe I was being a little bit of a baby. You know? I mean, you can't like feel
[00:16:08.10] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. But if you can talk yourself out of it, like, convincingly, if you're honest with yourself, Then, yeah, I'd say it's not a big deal. But if you're like, doing it in such a way where you're you're talking a self yourself down and yourself doesn't wanna Be sat down and, like
[00:16:23.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Say my soul soul.
[00:16:24.89] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Like, that's a problem. Right? Because we're not talking about pretending. It's authentic. Yeah. Yeah. Deb, is is there any other thought you have to add to that?
[00:16:37.00] - Deb Nava
Um I don't know. I think Part of I mean, part of the thing that I think that was really important when I was, looking and studying and preparing for is just really considering, the, observation, I guess, of of others Seeing us, you know, seeing us working out our conflict and how important that is.
[00:16:58.89] - Gregg Garner
And that's how they see the Lord. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:17:00.89] - Deb Nava
And that's such an important component. I don't think that we're ever Necessarily considering when conflicts come up, like, oh, this is gonna affect the way someone sees the Lord. But, you know, communally on on that larger level, if there were, You know, fifty seeds of bitterness that were being planted, and, like, nobody paid attention to them. And, you know, over time, people are like, I don't know if those are I don't know if those are God's people. I don't know if they're doing the thing. You know? But just how important it is that we bear that responsibility, you know, for for you to see the Lord, for you to see the Lord and Others watching. But also what, like I don't know what a practical thing that we get to do, And, the word enables us to do that so that we can continue to move forward. We can uproot those things that need to be uprooted and then continue in moving forward in holiness.
[00:17:49.79] - Gregg Garner
That That's really good, Deb. Yeah. Thank you very much. So I think something to take away from this episode is that We should be sensitive to what potential seeds could be sown through our interactions that Have that capacity for bitterness. And if we we sense that such could be the case to act quickly To remedy what bitterness would exist, and we know that the mechanism for that is to engage in some kind of conversation with a person That would result in forgiveness. And that that forgiveness, it leads to the kind of holiness that we want people to see when they look at us. We'll see you guys next time.
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